David Hill

RS: This 00:01:00is Regan Siler with the Bristow Historical Society in Bristow, Oklahoma. This interview is part of the historical society’s ongoing oral history project. The date is July 12, 2024 and I’m sitting here with Principal Chief David Hill and his wife, Monica Hill, at the Bristow Library Annex. They are going to tell us a little bit about their life and their history living in the Bristow area. Can you each state your full name, please?

DH: David Walter Hill.

MH: Monica Lynn Hill.

RS: Okay, and do I have permission to record this interview?

MH: Yes.

DH: Yes.

RS: Okay. So, can you each tell me when and where you were born?

DH: November 6, 1964 in Talihina [Oklahoma].

MH: December 13, 1964, Stroud [Oklahoma].

RS: Okay, and were your born in a hospital or at home?

DH: Hospital.

RS: Hospital. And what about you, Monica?

MH: Hospital.

RS: Hospital, okay. Can you each tell me about the people in your family? So, let’s start with your parents. Chief Hill, can you tell me what your parents’ names are and if you had, and that includes any step-parents you might have had.

DH: My father was George Hill [8/16/1919-1976] and my mother was JoAnn Hill [JoAnn Hicks Hill Powell 12/26/1935-4/26/2024].

RS: Okay, and what about you, Monica?

MH: Connie Baker [Connie Lavon Deese Watson Baker] and John Watson [John Robert Watson]. Mom’s middle name was Deese.

RS: Okay, and no step-parents for either of you?

MH: Yeah, for maybe a year, but RS: That’s okay.

DH: Same here. About three, three or four years.

RS: Okay, that’s fine. Chief, do you have any siblings?

DH: I have two brothers and two sisters.

RS: Two brothers and two sisters. Can you tell us their names?

DH: Both sisters are twins. The oldest one is Jeanette, Jeanette Horse [Jeanette Martin]. My other sister, Janet Hill. And my brother is Sammy Hill and Solomon, Solomon Hill.

RS: I did not know Solomon was your brother. I’m learning something new. Okay, and then what about you, Monica?

MH: I have a sister, Lucinda. 00:02:00RS: Just one sister? Okay, and what’s her full name?

MH: Thomas. Lucinda Thomas.

RS: Lucinda Thomas. Okay. So, what type of work did your parents do?

DH: Best I can remember of my dad, I was only 11-1/2 when he passed away. He did kind of like the tree line service, where they cut the tree limbs, trees down, whatever. Then he went to Prescor in Sapulpa, and he was kind of like a maintenance person, I believe.

RS: And then your mom, did she just work in the home?

DH: More of a seamstress. She used to work at the garment factory here in Bristow. 00:03:00Then she went to Okemah [Oklahoma].

MH: Wrangler Factory.

DH: Wrangler Factory there. Then Chandler [Oklahoma]. Not Chandler.

MH: Prague [Oklahoma].

DH: Prague, I believe.

RS: So, she was pretty much always a seamstress, then?

DH: Now she did work at the hospital, Okemah Hospital for as a cook.

RS: Okay, and then Monica, you had kind of an interesting story about what your dad did, especially.

MH: Want me to tell that?

RS: Yeah! If you want, go right ahead.

MH: Well, he was a quarter horse jockey, so we traveled a lot. In the early, like when I was two and three, it was like Raton and Colorado Centennial Park, but then maybe around ’68, 00:04:00’69 right before I started school, he started riding in Los Alamitos [California]. So, we would leave here in October and go to Los Alamitos and he would race a couple months there and then we’d leave and go up to northern California to San Mateo and he would ride at Bay Meadows for a couple months. Then we’d come back to Los Alamitos, which is southern California, and he would do that meet. They would fly me home, because I started school in August and school didn’t end there until June, because they started in September, so they would fly me home for the last three or four weeks of school. I’d do that. Stay there for a couple weeks, fly me back out to California and then a week before the meet, school starts, so they’d fly me back home in August to start again. Then they would come home for three months and then we’d start again in October.

RS: So, you had quite an interesting childhood growing up, then.

MH: Yeah, I didn’t know it at the time. I didn’t like it. I wanted to be normal like everybody that’s mom and dad goes to work and he comes home. But, now, I’m like, gosh, I wished I would have known to enjoy it instead of complaining all the time. I just want to live in Oklahoma. I just want to stay in Depew. It was good. I got to meet a lot of people and do a lot of different things that I didn’t really realize until I was older.

RS: Got to see a lot of things and experience a lot of things that, otherwise, you wouldn’t have living in just Depew, right?

MH: And always on the go. 00:05:00You know, almost prepared for this here, because it’s like, it’s no difference than that. You’re always on the go. You’re always packing and unpacking.

RS: I feel like trying to even schedule this appointment was tricky, because you guys are always going somewhere it seems like.

MH: We ran home, and I unpacked, and I was like, oh, I’m going to have to do this again on Thursday.

RS: Exactly. Well, Chief Hill, I heard a birth story about you that I wanted you to share. Actually, ShaLae [ShaLae Hill Shaw] and Jason [Salsman], both, told me about it, about you being born early and with the doctor and everything. Can you tell us about that?

DH: Yeah, my youngest daughter, ShaVon [Shavon Britt Hill Agee], is always posting it during my birthday. Seven months, and I was four and a half pounds. And I didn’t notice ShaVon had talked to my mom about it. And I guess the doctor was wanting to know if he could adopt me. 00:06:00I guess she told him no. Said my mom’s going to take care of him, which I already had two brothers and two sisters, so, he thought it was going to be too much for mom. When ShaVon asked, well, did you ask grandma? She said, no. She said, but he didn’t know that. My name David comes, I guess they more or less the doctor picked the name for me. Picked David out of the Bible.

RS: Oh! Okay.

DH: And my middle name, Walter, was named after the doctor.

RS: Wow! Okay. Well, that’s neat. So, are you the youngest of your siblings?

DH: Yes, I’m the youngest.

RS: Okay, okay. And then growing up did each of you have family that lived nearby?

MH: All my family was in Depew and Bristow, so when we were home, they were nearby. My aunt was next door. My grandpa and grandma and everybody was in town.

RS: And then what about you, David? Where did you grow up?

DH: I grew up in Gypsy 00:07:00 [Oklahoma].

RS: In Gypsy.

DH: Just south of Bristow. All the family lived there. My aunt and uncle, we actually still lived on the allotted land that was given to our grandfather back in the early 1900’s.

RS: Okay, is that land still in your family?

DH: Yes.

RS: Okay, okay. So, has your family always been in the Gypsy/Bristow area?

DH: As far as my sisters RS: Or when did your family, I guess, come here?

DH: ’63 right before I was born. We lived in Wetumka [Oklahoma]. In ’63 moved to Bristow. My dad, my uncle, my aunt all moved at the same time to where we’re at now.

RS: Okay, so all the family just lived out, so like how much land?

DH: Hundred and sixty-eight.

RS: Oh, wow, okay. And then you 00:08:00had, did you live, Monica, did you live in town in Depew? Did you have land?

MH: House in Depew.

RS: In town?

MH: Yeah.

RS: Alright. Well, let’s talk a little bit about your early childhood and home life. These are just kind of some fun questions to get to know you. So, Chief, do you remember having any favorite toys or games that you played when you were young?

DH: Not really. We, basically, played outside. We lived out in the country, and you know, Christmastime, me and my brother may get a basketball, football, and just whatever, and that was about it. Otherwise, we got in the woods running, fishing, hunting.

RS: Right. I like that, though. What about you, Monica?

MH: I liked my toys. Because I would have to pack up my favorite toys to take with me.

RS: To take with you.

MH: Yeah, because I’d leave most of that stuff, but I had RS: Do you have any particular memories of particular toys or whatever that you liked?

MH: Yeah, it was a little thing that played records, but the records were kind of plastic, like you see, like 00:09:00toys, except it was The Beatles. It was like Let It Be and some of those songs. And then I had a tape recorder, and that was my favorite thing, is I taped my dad. I taped my grandpa. I’d pretend like I was a reporter, and I, that was the main thing I did all the time.

RS: You don’t have any of those anymore, do you? Any of those recordings?

MH: I have them, but when I tried to play it, it said “grrrr”.

RS: Oh no!

MH: I hate it.

RS: Oh no! That would be fun to still have. Did either of you have chores that you were expected to do whenever you were growing up?

DH: No, not really.

RS: Not really?

DH: Yeah.

RS: So, you just got to hang out and be in the woods, huh? What about you, Monica?

MH: I bet your mom would say different. I bet you had chores. You probably had to take the trash out. Or you might not have.

DH: No, I was the youngest.

MH: She had to remind you all the time.

DH: I was the youngest.

RS: So, you were the baby. You probably got spoiled a little bit, huh? What about you, Monica, did you have any chores?

MH: Well, I can’t really think of any chores.

DH: Yeah, see!

MH: I mean, I made my bed.

DH: She was spoiled!

RS: Well, it sounds like she had a pretty cool life, honestly. I know that it wasn’t exactly what you probably wanted as a young person, but, like you say, looking back now, 00:10:00it’s like, wow, you got to experience a lot of things. So, did you have friends that came over and played with you when you were young or did you mainly hang out with your siblings?

DH: Now as far as friends, my cousins, there was like, we lived on the east side of the creek and they lived on the west side. Felix [Felix Hill] was probably two years older than I was. Danny [Danny Hill] was probably four. Franklin [Franklin Hill] was the same age as my brother. And we all, basically, just played together. Had bicycles. Rode down the dirt road.

RS: You had built in best friends with cousins, didn’t you?

DH: Yeah.

RS: And then what about you, Monica? Did you have, well, you were probably, it was probably tough for you, wasn’t it, to have MH: Well, my friends were here.

RS: Right.

MH: So, yeah, I had best friends here, girls and boys. My mom went to Depew and so did her best friend Neva and Diana Jackson, and they all three married three guys from Bristow who were friends, 00:11:00so Richard Graham (ph) and Howard Webb, and so then, we were all like, me and Randy (ph) were six days apart, Randy Webb. And then, Brenda is a few months older than us. So, we were all that same age, and so they would do things together and so we would play together. But California, mainly, it was babysitters, I had like babysitters that were like three or four years older. Someone that would come stay with me if I didn’t go to the races and would play games.

RS: So, whenever you were out there, with it being a different time, obviously not having social media and cell phones, were you able to stay in contact with your friends back home? Did you write letters? Did you get to call them or did you just have to wait until you came back?

MH: Yeah, I’d write letters. Tracy Haskins (ph) was like my best friend. She was from Bristow, and she moved back to Depew and she’s actually kin to me. I’d write letters with her. But other than that, it was back when I came home.

RS: When you came back.

MH: Because those kids out there, because I had an accent. I didn’t think I had an accent, and then I wore jeans and boots.

RS: And that was probably different 00:12:00than MH: Yeah, now my dad said if I’d have came back later after we moved back, everybody was an urban cowboy and you’d have fit in so.

RS: I’d imagine. Did you have any favorite activities or hobbies as a child?

DH: Probably just playing basketball.

RS: Basketball. Always basketball? Was that your sport.

DH: Yes.

RS: What about you, Monica?

MH: I played basketball, but I wasn’t good like him. In California, it was like a park and recreation thing, and so they played full court. And then I came back home and they’re doing six on six.

RS: Yeah, I’m from the half court era, too. Do you, so, how have your interests changed over time from being a young person to now? Do you have any hobbies now that enjoy? I mean, I know you guys have grandkids and stuff like that. Are you too busy to have any 00:13:00 hobbies?

DH: Yeah, other than just mowing the yard, that’s it.

RS: Just mowing the yard.

DH: I like history now. Now it, I guess in the, what I’m doing now as a job, learning the history.

RS: I agree with you. I feel like since I’ve been involved with the historical society, I have gotten more involved in history and learning about Bristow’s history, and it made me wish I would have paid attention, more probably, in school than what I did. But I find history super fascinating, too, and I’m sure with what you’re doing it’s really.

DH: Well, since we got married at a young age, we was a sophomore, I probably would have taken those classes in school, but I guess, it was ’91 ’92 when my grandmother passed away, me and my brother, Solomon, would always go visit with her. Mom 00:14:00[JoAnn Hicks Hill Powell 12/26/1935-4/26/2024] had mentioned that she had, there’s 412 pages of old paper ledgers of Charley Coker. If you read the history, he was with Crazy Snake [Chitto Harjo 1846-1911] at the time.

RS: I actually read a little bit about him prior to this interview.

DH: She had all these old documents that he wrote, I want to say 80% is in the Creek language, but it’s written the way it sounded to him. He couldn’t speak or write English. Or Creek. He just wrote it the way it sounded to him.

RS: So, are you still in possession of those?

DH: Yeah. Mom gave them to me. But there’s more ledgers that are missing, it appears. That’s when I kind of started checking into it, looking into it, to see who Charley Coker was. 00:15:00Then I started reading the history on Chitto Harjo, which was Crazy Snake. He had like three or four different names. What they did back then in the early 1900’s before statehood, before Oklahoma became a state, they were fighting for to keep it, ironically, as a reservation back then.

RS: They didn’t want statehood, right?

MH: Or allotments.

DH: Or allotments. It was very traditional. They wanted to keep it as a reservation, so they, actually, fought against the government.

MH: Well, they knew what would happen.

DH: Yeah.

RS: Right, so, with those ledgers, are you able to, since he just wrote them as, I guess, it sounded to him, are you able to translate them?

DH: Some of it. If I keep on reading it. That’s why I wished I was more fluent in learning the written history.

MH: But even some Creek people can’t.

DH: He wrote it, some will say it’s the old language.

RS: The what?

DH: There’s old language that they say, as far as 00:16:00Creek, and mom was one of them that could speak the old language. Now how years kind of went by RS: That has kind of faded?

DH: Yeah, we didn’t have Creek words for car, airplanes or anything like that, so they kind of made it up as they go along. But there was original language that was spoken back then, and mom was one of them that could speak it. And we feel that’s the way he wrote it out when he wrote. There’s letters from Garfield back in 1906. I know it never made it to him because I’ve got the actual envelope and letter.

RS: Oh my gosh, that is priceless!

DH: And there’s letters that he’s written that they went to Washington D.C. to meet William McKinley, Roosevelt…and he spelled it in Creek on how to pronounce the name. So, there’s interesting information there. I did have, during Covid year, it was kind of shut down. So, a lot of our projects, our language department didn’t have anything to do, so I just asked them, would y’all want 00:17:00to do me a favor. So, I separated all the pages I had and had three of them just write it out. What do you think it was saying? But they wrote it in the Creek language, so I’m going to have to translate that back into English.

MH: [Indecipherable] DH: Margaret Mauldin [Margaret McKane Mauldin] who is a teacher at OU [University of Oklahoma], translated one picture, or one letter that was written. It had 1799, Andrew Jackson, and she translated to say that on this day, 1799, Andrew Jackson came through the camp with 3,000 Spanish 00:18:00soldiers and killed some person [indecipherable] or something. She couldn’t figure that out. I still have the actual letter.

RS: That’s amazing! So, are they in your possession or do you have them at the headquarters or?

DH: It’s at a bank.

MH: Safety deposit box.

RS: Yeah, I was gonna say, that’s absolutely priceless.

DH: But I had them microfiche, microfilm, CD. I put them all on that.

RS: And you said there’s like 400 pages?

DH: About 412 pages.

RS: And have they gotten very far in deciphering.

DH: They did all of it.

RS: Oh, they did all as best they could.

DH: Yeah, so I have to go in and figure out what was said.

RS: I’m going to have to circle back to find out whenever you get to the point of, I guess, deciphering all of that, because that’s amazing.

DH: And that’s where it becomes interesting, because I asked mom, because Charley Coker passed away before 00:19:00mom was born, but just what grandma had told him. And I was wanting to have all that translated when grandma was still alive but didn’t get a chance to, and so I asked mom, because I have to ask her permission. Can I have these translated? And she was afraid of the stories that she was told that the law enforcement was chasing after him because, she heard that he stole horses. There was two books written, the “Smoke Meat Rebellion” by Mel Hallin Bolster and Robert Langley [Robert J. Conley], he’s Cherokee, wrote a book about Crazy Snake. And if you read that, and also the historical society in Oklahoma City, I got their information. It was actually called the Smoked Meat Rebellion back in the early 1900’s. 1906, 1907 where they chased after, four military groups chased after Charley Coker and Crazy Snake. Because they were as a battle at around Pierce, Oklahoma, 00:20:00Checotah [Oklahoma], Eufala [Oklahoma] area where they chased after them.

RS: So, how did your mom, how did she get these?

DH: I guess, I don’t know if she was the oldest daughter of Charley Coker, but when he wrote all this down.

MH: It’s grandma. The daughter of him.

RS: Oh, so your grandma is Charley Coker’s daughter.

MH: And, so, she kept all that hidden under her bed, because back then, she never spoke anything but Creek. She never spoke English, but people were after them, you know, because RS: So, she was basically trying to protect.

MH: And hide, because she was afraid that they would find DH: They would find it.

MH: Yeah, and still be after them, too, even though they are gone, you know.

DH: As of today, the family members are the only ones that knows where Charley Coker is buried. Because they put some of the belongings, like his ball sticks or maybe his gun or rifle is buried WITH him, and they were afraid of the non-native knowing where he was buried, they’ll dig him up.

RS: Well, now I’m really going to have to go back and research, because that’s a super interesting story to know the connection of your grandmother and your mother.

DH: Well, that’s as far as me, I couldn’t speak English until I was in the second grade.

RS: Really? So, you spoke completely Creek? 00:21:00Wow! And have you always been able to speak English or can you speak the Creek language?

MH: Oh, no. I can only speak English. I mean, my grandpa was Creek, so he got to like [indecipherable] to count and animals and food and stuff. And David, I said he taught me the important words like cepo fvmpe, stinky butt.

RS: You know I’m going to have to revisit that and have you tell me how to spell that, because I have no idea. Well, that’s, so, Chitto Harjo, how 00:22:00was that person related? Was that person related at all?

DH: Well, mom had told me that Chitto Harjo’s brother was actually Charley Coker’s dad. I mean, there’s no way to find that out, and I don’t know for sure.

RS: Don’t know for sure.

DH: That’s just what she had said.

RS: That’s so neat.

DH: Actually, he came through here, Chitto Harjo, came through Bristow at one time.

RS: Do you know when, like the date?

DH: No, Paula Atwell is the one that told me. She had something RS: Paula Atwell is my go-to gal for history stuff.

DH: She’s actually the one that told me about it, probably 10-15 years ago, maybe.

RS: Wow! That’s so neat. Well, be 00:23:00expecting a call from me because I would like to know whenever you do get those, I guess, translated. That would be amazing to know what they all say.

DH: All the old papers are brown. I mean, you can’t hardly.

RS: You have to be very, very, yeah.

DH: So, I had to hurry up.

MH: That’s why we have copies of them. We did the spray the stuff to protect it and all that, but it still.

RS: They still, well, you can only imagine, probably, what those papers went through all those years of being in different climates and under beds.

DH: Well, see, I did the wrong thing and put them in Ziploc bag. And they told me not to do that.

RS: Moisture.

DH: Because once I open it, well, that fresh air. It’s just better to leave them open and lay.

RS: I didn’t know that. How interesting! Will those end up going into any type of, do you have, you know, kind of like what we have, the historical society here. Does the tribal headquarters have something like that?

DH: We don’t yet. We’re looking to, actually, I was on a committee when I was a national council representative for a museum. But at the time, we purchased the council house and 00:24:00some other things and it got put on the back burner, but we’re gonna do a welcome center that’s in process, so, maybe, hopefully.

RS: Incorporate some of that into there, potentially? Well, that’s SO interesting. Okay, well, let’s see. Let’s talk about your school life. You, I know, were between Depew [Oklahoma] and California with your school, and then did you, Chief Hill, go to just Gypsy [Oklahoma]?

DH: Gyspy.

RS: And that just, was it the same as it is now? It just went to eighth grade?

DH: Eighth grade.

RS: Okay, alright.

MH: Eighth grade is the year that we, me and my mom came home to stay. And, so, otherwise, I wouldn’t have met him, because I wouldn’t have RS: Why don’t you tell, why don’t you tell the story of how you met Chief Hill.

MH: Well, we were playing basketball against Gypsy, and Gypsy didn’t have enough girls for a team, 00:25:00so it was just the boys. And, so, I cheered also for the boys, so, I went to the basketball game at Gyspy and I told my friend Molly, I said, oh look at that #44. He’s cute. And she was like, yeah, and so is #41, which was his cousin. Then it just kind of went from there because a lot of the kids that were at Gyspy, like Jimmy Jay Donaldson. He’d come to Depew and then he’d go back to Gypsy and back and forth. So, once he knew that I liked him, and he was teasing him about me and all that. Then he came to school the next year in the ninth grade.

RS: So, you did the transfer from Gypsy to Depew and did high school at Depew.

DH: Depew. But I did MH: I always say had I not stayed home that year, if I’d kept doing what we were doing, I wouldn’t have ever met him.

DH: If I didn’t meet her, I probably would have went to Bristow, because I had Coach Scott.

RS: Right.

DH: I didn’t realize he came to a basketball game. We was playing basketball, which Gypsy’s not the full length basketball court, and I guess he saw me throw the ball halfway across the court.

RS: And then he wanted you to play football!

DH: He wanted me to play at Bristow, 00:26:00but my cousin, all my cousins live in and around Mason [Oklahoma], and they wanted me to come to Mason and play basketball. But since all my brothers and sisters and my cousins here went to Depew, I went to Depew.

RS: So, did you guys enjoy school? Did you enjoy going to school?

DH: I did, but she MH: I don’t know. I liked basketball.

RS: So, you weren’t as in to academics as you were sports?

MH: Oh, yeah, I did make good grades. I guess it wasn’t…it might have helped that I went to so many different schools, because the school part, work was easier.

RS: It was easier for you. Did you have any influential or favorite teachers during that time that stick out to you?

MH: Well, Mrs. Rigney (ph) was my kindergarten teacher.

RS: Mrs. who?

MH: Mrs. Rigney (ph) and we all loved Mrs. Rigney (ph), but Mrs. Reeder, Molly Reeder [Molly M. Ailey Reeder 11/21/1922-10/27/2017], her, she was our third-grade teacher. Now, she taught my grandpa, 00:27:00and then she taught my mom in third grade. And then she taught me in third grade.

RS: Oh, wow!

MH: So, they did a thing in the newspaper. And then she taught ShaRee [ShaRee Brooke Hill], so then Channel 2 came down because it was four generations that she had taught us, so.

RS: Oh, wow, that’s cool!

MH: She’s precious and special to everybody at Depew.

RS: Well, that’s neat. And what about you, Chief?

DH: As far as my favorite teacher?

RS: Were there any teachers that you felt were influential to you or maybe a favorite?

DH: Probably third and fourth grade, probably Mrs. Harrington, Linda Harrington.

RS: Linda Harrington, okay.

MH: High school though.

DH: Huh?

MH: High school.

DH: Oh, high school? Probably my basketball coach. Roger Carter.

RS: Roger Carter.

DH: We still talk. He told Monica he texted me the other day, and he still calls me his point guard.

RS: That’s awesome! So, 00:28:00were you guys involved in any clubs or organizations in school? I mean, obviously, you both really liked sports, but were you involved in any other activities in school.

MH: I don’t think Depew had.

RS: Didn’t have too much.

MH: Anything like that.

RS: Okay. Did you have a favorite subject? And basketball doesn’t count.

MH: I liked math. I didn’t know that much about history then, so, now I do. Now everything is about history. It’s all I want to do is read books, but back then it was probably, I like math. I still like math and chemistry.

DH: I really can’t even remember. I only took algebra because of her.

RS: Was she in the algebra class and that’s what you liked. We know where you priorities were.

DH: And I got a spanking on her behalf, you know.

RS: Oh, 00:29:00that’s funny. Okay, well, let’s talk a little bit about the houses you grew up in. What was your, what was your home like that you grew up in as a, as a kid.

DH: Mine was, more less, what they call a shotgun house. Dad had bought one from, I think it was Jimmy Talent, years ago, well, back in’64 or ’65. Moved there, and you know, it was just, just a square house.

MH: But they moved that house out onto your land.

DH: Yeah, and there was no bathroom, so they had to, dad and my uncles had to build a bathroom in it. Otherwise, it was an outhouse. I tried to tell my daughters that, and they couldn’t believe it. It was my mom and dad in one bedroom. And me and my other siblings, five of us, in one bedroom. Then our grandmother was kind of off and on stayed 00:30:00with us, and my cousins, who I always considered them my aunt and uncle, Johnny, Terry and Mary, they stayed with us. So, you’re RS: Oh, wow!

DH: It wasn’t even, how big is your mom’s house?

MH: About a thousand square feet.

DH: It was probably a thousand square feet. Just a small kitchen.

RS: Which is probably why you were outside a lot, huh?

DH: Yeah.

RS: Yeah, well, that’s interesting. So, was it, I’m guessing, you probably didn’t have air conditioning or, no air conditioning?

DH: Just one of them old coolers, you know.

RS: So, how long, so they built a bathroom on? So, how long did you have the outhouse situation?

DH: Oh, I don’t know. I couldn’t tell you. Probably a couple years. Two, three years, maybe.

MH: But how old were you when they built the other house?

DH: I was born and raised over there at the other one. Probably, I can’t even remember, so, it had to be four or five.

RS: You were little.

DH: Yeah.

RS: So, 00:31:00you had that house and then they built another house? Is that what you’re saying?

DH: No, I’m sorry. They had another house by my aunt and uncle. And I was probably one, two, maybe, three.

MH: No, I’m talking about DH: Then they built that house.

MH: That your mom is living in now. That house. That’s what I’m talking about.

DH: I think it was ’76, ’75, dad got a house and mom through Creek Nation. It was one of the first to get an original house that was being built. That was ’74, ’75 maybe?

MH: So, you lived in that house a long time.

RS: So, is the original shotgun house still standing?

DH: No.

RS: It’s gone. And what about you, Monica?

MH: Me? Oh.

RS: What was your house like?

MH: Just a brick house, living room, bedroom, three bedrooms, two baths.

DH: I thought she was rich.

MH: Well, evidently somebody did, but 00:32:00I didn’t know. I’d go stay with my great aunt in Gypsy, and then I would, when I’d spend the night, I’d would ride the bus to Gypsy School, switch to the high school, then ride with the high school kids. They were all older, you know, and I’m real intimidated because I’m probably just seven or eight or something. Right as we come in town, we go past our house, and I hear somebody say, real derogatory like, oh that’s where the little rich girl lives. And I look up to see where the little rich girl lives and it was my house. And, so, I thought it sounded like they don’t like her, that little girl, so I sat back down and was kind of hiding. Then Jan Donaldson, she was a teenager then, and she knows who I am and my mom and everybody, and so she just looked at me winked and smiled that it was okay. But I remember thinking, I didn’t know I was a little rich girl. Nobody told me. I didn’t get everything I wanted.

RS: So, did you dad make, I’m guessing, a pretty good living as a jockey.

MH: Yeah.

RS: I would think if you’re traveling back and forth from California to Oklahoma as much as what you were.

MH: I 00:33:00know that we built that house and then it seems like he won a race and paid the house off. It was the All-American Futurity. It’s a big race.

RS: Oh, wow!

MH: It’s a million-dollar race. He didn’t get a million but it’s the richest quarter horse race.

RS: Right. That’s interesting.

MH: Then we had an apartment in southern California that we kept.

RS: That you stayed in when you were out there.

MH: And then the one in northern California we’d just rent for a couple months. The one in southern, we kept all the time, so, we had two homes.

RS: So, see you probably were considered a rich kid then. I bet no one around here knew anything, a life like that.

MH: But I was like those kids don’t even know me. I was thinking they don’t even know who I am, so how would they.

RS: What were meal times like with your family? Did everyone sit down and eat dinner? Tell me about a typical meal time.

DH: Ours, the elders would eat first. Kids were always last. When I think now, just breakfast, it was the same thing, eggs, bacon. But during dinner time it was, you know, like baked beans, potatoes. Because now it’s a four-course meal.

RS: Right.

DH: And you had to eat everything. You know, mom always made us. If we fix it, you gotta eat it.

RS: No leftovers.

DH: Monica gets on to me. She said you eat too much 00:34:00now. That’s just the way we grew up.

RS: It’s engrained in you from MH: He has to clear his plate. You don’t have to clean your plate. Stop when you’re full. But you did a lot of traditional food. I mean, your mom cooked traditional food all the time.

RS: So, tell me what some examples of traditional food would be.

DH: Blue bread, what we call cvtv hakv. She would make that.

RS: Say that word again.

DH: Cvtv hakv.

RS: Cvtv hakv.

DH: And sofke it was kind of like hominy corn. She would make that.

MH: It’s a drink and you use lye.

DH: It’s a drink, yeah.

RS: Oh wow. Anything else?

MH: Grape dumplings.

DH: Grape dumplings. It was kind of a dessert for me.

RS: So, grape dumplings. What is that?

DH: I don’t even know how you fix it.

RS: Like what does it consist of? Like is it actual grapes?

MH: Grapes, yeah.

DH: And they make, they get the color from corn hulls. 00:35:00MH: Seems like I remember you saying that.

DH: Now I can’t think. Corn hulls and they beat it. Kind of gets the color of purple. I think now they use like grape juice. Modernized. Got civilized.

RS: So, the elders ate first. Was that because it was a small kitchen or is that just traditionally what you would do?

DH: It’s just traditionally. Even at the churches when we took, when I went with grandma. Mom, we always took grandma to the churches. She went whenever she wanted to go but that’s just the way it was back then. The elders ate first. The kids ate last. But it’s different now. You want the kids to eat first and get them out of the house. Some of the tradition has kind of gone away.

RS: Yeah, I agree. And then, so what about you, Monica, how were meal times at your house?

MH: During race time, it was just me and momma until Sundays and then mom would 00:36:00always cook. Sometimes she’d still cook.

RS: But didn’t you say you had a sister?

MH: Yes, but I didn’t get a sister until I was 11, so I forget.

RS: Oh, okay.

MH: I mean, I’m thinking back when I was little.

RS: Right, when you were little.

MH: But mom, I mean she cooked for me and her and then dad, but my dad a lot would stop at Jack in the Box, because they had that in California back then. They didn’t have it here. So, he’d stop at Jack in the Box on the way home, and that was my favorite thing. We’d stay up until 11:00, 11:30 and eat Jack in the Box with my dad.

RS: She didn’t even know what kind of life she was living.

DH: Yeah!

RS: She had no idea!

MH: When we’d come back here, though, she’d cook, and my dad cooked a lot. My dad made chocolate fudge. It’s a big thing, because everybody likes daddy’s fudge. I still have the thing on it. And he barbequed a lot. And I remember he made brown beans one time and corn bread, and he put so much sugar in it, but bubbles and that’s how I make my corn bread, too. Gotta have a lot of sugar in it.

DH: Cake.

RS: Is it good?

DH: It’s good.

RS: Does that mean it’s good? So, did you have any favorite 00:37:00things that you ate that your mom cooked or your grandma cooked?

DH: Just everything they cooked.

RS: You just liked everything? Okay.

DH: And I dare to say, it’s not near as good as mom, I don’t tell mom.

MH: Sofke is your favorite. I mean everyone knows he wants sofke anytime he goes somewhere.

DH: Yeah, every.

RS: And what is that again?

MH: That’s the hominy.

RS: Okay. 00:38:00See, I’m learning. I didn’t know.

DH: You better eat it the first day. Some people eat the second day, third day.

MH: And add sugar to it and let it ferment.

RS: Oh, wow! Interesting, okay. So, thinking back to growing up, probably more teenager time, were there any favorite community activities that you guys did. I don’t know, did you ever come here for Western Heritage Days or was there day camps, parades, county fairs, was there anything like that community related that either one of you were involved in as youngsters?

MH: As youngsters or, I mean like, once we met, we went to the stomp dances. So that’s probably what he did most all the time.

RS: So, that was more of your community activity was stomp dances. Can you tell me about stomp dances? 00:39:00DH: Most people think it’s similar to pow-wows, but it’s different. My ceremonial ground is Okfuskee, which is anybody knows where IXL is at, it’s just straight south on 48 (Highway 48) before you get to Okemah or Castle. Which we dance four times a year. And the dances don’t start until like midnight. Dance until 8 in the morning. And that’s where, there’s sixteen ceremonial grounds within Creek Nation that are Creek. There’s two, there’s three that are Euchee, Euchee grounds. There’s Sand Creek, right beside where mom lives.

MH: Iron Post.

DH: Iron Post. It’s Sand Creek and Iron Post, but the same. Then you got one in Kellyville [Oklahoma], but they all, that’s where they all get together.

RS: So, can you tell me, because I’m not sure that I know, and I’m sure people listening would want to know, like what is the purpose of a stomp 00:40:00 dance?

DH: It’s just something that started years ago as traditional, culturally related. You have, even though I’m the chief of Muscogee (Creek) Nation, each ground has their own Mekko, that’s their chief. That’s what they call them, Mekko.

RS: Mekko.

DH: And they’re appointed by people. And that’s lifetime position.

MH: Appointed by that ground.

DH: By that ceremonial ground.

MH: It’s their ceremony, and it’s just from the very beginning. They brought the fire. Tell them how they brought the fire from each ground in Alabama.

DH: They say there’s a big, kind of like a rock, kind of like a coal, and when you hear the stories of the Trail of Tears, they say they brought the fire with them. That’s, basically, what they’re talking about. They brought the coal with them all the way from Georgia and Alabama back here. And you find the location you want to dig it, so it’s three foot in the ground where then you measure 00:41:00off where your arbor, for your Mekko’s arbor, your warrior’s arbor. We have four arbors at our camp, but there’s some that only have three. And there’s certain ways it has to be set, you know, like the Mekko’s camp always like you’re facing the east. And the warriors sit on each side. Like I say, we have different, we just recently had ours a couple weeks ago. First time without mom, and probably had 13 visitors, because we was the only ones dancing. Like this weekend, you’ll have MH: Not 13 people. Thirteen different grounds.

DH: Different grounds.

MH: They’re people.

DH: So, we probably had 3-400 people there?

RS: So, I guess, is it just DH: Gathering? Ceremony?

RS: Is it like a…I don’t want to say party, but I mean is it a celebration?

DH: It’s a gathering, 00:42:00 socializing.

MH: It’s kind of sacred.

RS: Sacred?

DH: Yeah, sacred.

RS: Okay, and when you say warriors on each side, what does that look like in today’s terms of warriors? Or I guess, who would be deemed a warrior?

DH: Your kind of given a name after you go. I haven’t been since after dad passed away, then that’s when I met Monica, so I went straight to work. And I only went during Friday or Saturday but come back home, so I haven’t been given a name yet. After so long you get to participate. They’ll actually give you a name, who you are. You have the Mekko, which is the chief. Then you’ve got kind of like a speaker, called the heneha. Then you’ll have a medicine man. Then you’ll have another position. There’s like four positions at the ceremonial grounds. Which, my brother Sammy [Hill], he’s a tvstvnke. That’s kind of like the head warrior.

RS: Can you say that word again?

DH: Tvstvnvke.

RS: Okay.

DH: It’s kind of like the head warrior. And he’s, basically, got the same, almost the same rights as the chief, makes a lot of decisions or he kind of tells the Mekko 00:43:00or the chief, you know, what needs to be done. And, like I said, when you have dance, you’ll have different ceremonial grounds that come and help, join. Because you want to help your fellow community grounds.

RS: Right. And I guess, does everybody dress in? No?

DH: It’s just jeans.

MH: It’s not pow wow.

RS: So, that is different? That’s a different DH: Everyone has their regalia. Now they may wear a ribbon dress. The only time is like what we call Green Corn. All the men, we have to get there like 8:00 and without eating or drinking, get up, and we have to sit around a fire at the camp ground. And the medicine man will make some medicine for us, and all the men have to drink the [indecipherable] four times.

RS: Interesting.

DH: It’s kind of hard to describe.

RS: Well, I’m sure it probably 00:44:00is when it’s something that is so rooted and sacred and rooted in your culture, but for someone like me, it’s interesting to me to hear, even if I don’t fully understand it, I like to hear…I feel like other people would MH: There’s a leader that leads the stomp dances [indecipherable] on the other grounds, they’re grounds will have a leader also, and they’ll take turns leading and, so, they’ll sing, then they follow behind them, and then it’s like a woman DH: The women will wear, back then, traditionally, was turtle shells. They would drill a hole in the shell itself and they would put rocks, usually river rocks and they’ll wear them around their legs.

MH: Now they do cans a lot.

DH: They do milk cans.

MH: Little Milnot cans and that makes the shaking noise.

RS: The noise?

DH: Yeah.

MH: You usually have a [indecipherable].

DH: Men, yeah it’s men, female, male, female. 00:45:00RS: So, do you feel that that’s important for, say, like your kids and your grandkids to be a part of to understand that culture and tradition?

DH: Yeah, I think it is. The daughters, which, my son-in-law, Rick [Shaw], he’s not native, but he’s really interested. He’s wanting to learn. And that’s what they both, ShaLae [ShaLae Hill Shaw] said, too, that she wished she would have learned more, the culture and history.

RS: Right.

DH: You don’t realize it until you get like thirty or forty.

RS: I don’t know why it always takes until you’re older to appreciate, because I feel the same way about history, too, I’m 50 now, and it’s taken me until, really, the last several years to really be interested and appreciate the history. I don’t know why when you’re young, you just don’t, you’re not as invested in it as you probably should be.

DH: You know, I guess 00:46:00it’s different back then, when I was growing up. You know, television only went 2, 6, and 8, whatever. You didn’t have all these games. You didn’t have cell phones back then, so that was just embedded in us that weekend, we’ve got to load up and the truck or the vehicle to go to the dance. You know, Friday, Saturday, leave Sunday morning.

RS: Is it something that you enjoyed and looked forward to?

DH: I did, yeah. Until something occupied me later, you know. But she went with me.

RS: So, did you enjoy it as well?

MH: Yeah.

RS: Had you experienced anything like that prior to getting with Chief Hill?

MH: Huh-uh, no. I mean my grandpa was Creek and he would, he had been, but he was more of a church and went to the [indecipherable] the Creek churches also. And, back then, it was more like, if you got to church, you don’t go to stomp dances, and his grandma had really embedded that in him a lot. Because she used to dance with them when she got to church, and so it was really a big division, 00:47:00so it was kind of, especially after we got saved, I wasn’t real sure about that division, about what exactly it was. So, when we went to the stomp dance all night and we got home at 8:00 in the morning, we took a shower and then we went to church. So, we did both. But now, there’s a lot of people that go to church and do the stomp dances, and it’s not that, it’s one, it’s not that they are worshiping the fire or anything like that. It’s the creator. We call our creator God or Jesus, and they call their creator, Creator. But it’s the same person. It’s just how they RS: So, do you feel there’s less of that division now? Is that what you’re saying?

MH: Yeah, you have people, church people and, because it’s culture. And it’s we’ll lose that, and they want that part of the culture and want to learn it and want to have that to pass down, also. So, there’s people that do both.

RS: So, then, whenever you were young and you were going, 00:48:00it was more, that was kind of your church, for lack of a better way to put it. And you didn’t go to like an actual church?

MH: No, he did both.

RS: Oh, you did both? Okay.

MH: Because he would go with his grandma.

DH: We only went from the spring to fall, so in between if we weren’t dancing, mom would always take grandma. Which I went, too.

MH: To church.

RS: To church. And where did you attend church at?

DH: Grandma just started at one church. It’s called Buckeye, Buckeye Church. But it’s right there at IXL, but before then, she just went wherever. Nuyaka Church, where my uncle’s pastor of Greenleaf, a lot of your traditional churches. It was about all weekend.

RS: Really, and, so, what did MH: They have camp houses at those churches. And, so, they go and they camp there all weekend and have church.

RS: Oh, okay. And where did you attend church?

MH: Depew Church of God.

RS: Depew Church of God, okay. 00:49:00And that’s still there, isn’t it? Yeah, okay. So, whenever you were growing up, do you remember any particular, I guess, popular or favorite businesses that you frequented around town, whether it was here or in Depew?

DH: After we got married or younger?

RS: Well, I mean, I guess you were married young, so that’s kind of both ways.

DH: I guess, in between, it’s kind of funny, but my brothers, back then, everyone drug main. You drag main.

RS: Right.

DH: So, if they went to the dance, I stayed home. Well, my brother Solomon said if you go with me, back seat was the only place I could stay. So, I drug main with them, and I had to stay in the back seat.

RS: You had to stay in the back seat.

DH: So, I was dragging main when I was seventh and eighth grade.

RS: So, you were cool then? Do you remember any, 00:50:00I’m just trying to get a feel for as a teenager or whatever, I guess maybe what you guys did, obviously, you drug main. What were some things you did as a MH: Same thing.

RS: Drag main?

MH: Yeah, with my friend Tracey [indecipherable] was her older sister, so they’d let us or my cousin Eric and LaTonya Mayberry. LaTonya was older and, so, me and Eric was probably in the eighth grade, and she’d take us, of course, she would do that, she would leave us in the back or she would leave us parked at the 7-Eleven, and she’d go off with someone else, and we’d have to sit there and not old enough to drive to watch everybody go by until she came back and got us.

RS: And was that in Bristow?

MH: Yeah, down there at the, what is it now?

RS: Kum & Go.

DH: But I guess the popular thing was the old drive-in.

RS: Okay.

MH: Yeah, we did that a lot.

RS: The drive-in? Okay, see that’s kind of, I guess, trying to think back to the businesses that were around at that time and what you did.

MH: I forgot about that. Because you’d get out and sit on the car and visit.

DH: The skating rink. 00:51:00MH: I wasn’t much on the skating rink.

DH: I didn’t go to the skating rink.

RS: You didn’t go to the skating rink?

MH: I mean, the church went once in a while, but RS: But not big on skating? Do you remember your family’s first car? What was your first car?

DH: 1969 Dodge Super Bee.

RS: A Dodge Super Bee, cool!

DH: I got that in eighth grade.

RS: In eighth grade?!

DH: My brother, since my dad passed away, me and my brother got the VA checks. So, he was wanting to buy a brand-new car which was a Z28, I think, back then? He said if you make my first car payment and insurance, he said, I’ll let you have this.

RS: That was a sweet deal! Well, that’s cool. So, you had a cool car then?

DH: Well, I thought it was.

MH: I like power steering, power brakes and air conditioning. 00:52:00DH: It had an air conditioner. Just roll down the windows.

MH: And an eight-track and you’d have to fold up a piece of paper to put underneath it, so it would, otherwise it would get loose.

RS: It would jiggle. So, what was your first car?

MH: I didn’t even have a license when we got married, so when we got married, you had that car. Once in a while it was running. Most of the time it wasn’t, and so, he came home one day and he’d bought us a car, our first car. And I was like, oh, I think my mom and dad went together to get a car, and it was a Gremlin. A tan Gremlin! And it was a standard, and I mean, I just barely got my driver’s license anyway.

RS: So, who taught you how guys how to drive? Do you remember?

DH: My brother.

RS: Your brother taught you how.

DH: Solomon.

RS: Okay. And then what about you?

MH: Momma.

RS: Your mom taught you how.

MH: But in Depew, you could drive in the eighth grade, so she had a T-Bird and I got to drive it around town.

DH: I think I drove probably sixth or seventh grade.

MH: Yeah, he was in the ninth grade 00:53:00without a license and he’d come to Depew.

DH: Actually, I had a highway patrol bring me home.

RS: Oh, no!

DH: I don’t even think I ever told Monica. The old Talent store in town. I think we needed milk or eggs or something and I got in the car and took off. Well, it stopped on me.

RS: And how old were you?

DH: I was probably seventh or eighth grade.

RS: Oh, my goodness!

DH: So, it stopped on me and he pulled up and brought me home.

RS: Did you get in trouble? A little bit?

DH: But I got whatever I needed. Eggs or milk, whatever my sisters needed.

RS: Well, so, growing up, what sort of entertainment did you guys enjoy? Did you get to watch TV or anything like that? I know you, obviously, liked music because you had your little records and your cassette player.

MH: When I was in California, I went to Disneyland a lot and Knott’s Berry Farm.

RS: She didn’t have any idea what kind of life she was living, did she?

MH: I didn’t go to 00:54:00Disneyland as much as Knott’s Berry Farm, but we might go to Knott’s Berry Farm once a month or something, me and my friend. They’d drop us off and let us do stuff, ride rides and then pick us up. And the races. Or the movie theater, we got to drop us off and then you just watch movies all day. You know, Benji and stuff like that. I think it was a dollar cinema. It wasn’t like a money thing. That’s because it was California.

RS: You had a whole lot of opportunities that people around here didn’t have.

MH: My dad golfed a lot at Los Alamitos like on Saturdays, so I’d go with him and drive the golf cart. And then he roped on Sundays when he wasn’t racing. So, I went to a lot of ropings.

DH: We, like I said, me and my brothers, my cousins, there was probably eight of us, we’d play baseball outside. We would go fishing, hunting together. Or we would walk 00:55:00down the dirt road from our house all the way to my cousin’s house. And I don’t know what their scientific name is, but we call them mountain boomers, them lizards. And we’d just chase them. I mean, it looked like they were dinosaurs.

RS: You guys were living two different kinds of lives.

DH: And we would climb the trees, the biggest trees we had. And it wasn’t volleyball, but the smaller basketballs, instead of playing tag where you throw it at each other, we would get in the trees and throw it at each other in the trees. Whoever got hit had to come down.

RS: This is creative play, right here. While you were at Disneyland, they were throwing balls at each other in the tree.

MH: Now I went to the beach a lot, too. That was creative.

DH: We went to the pond.

RS: You went to the creek or the pond.

DH: We swam in the pond with the snapping turtles and snakes.

RS: And the water moccasins. So, I guess there wasn’t probably a lot of 00:56:00TV watching or anything like that growing up?

DH: We didn’t.

RS: Not for you?

DH: Summer time after school or when school wasn’t in, we would go outside. You could hear mom or my sisters yelling like 4:30, 5:00. I mean you could hear them yelling. Said it’s time to come home and eat. That was our cell phone back then.

RS: Yeah, exactly.

MH: I watched a lot of I love Lucy.

RS: Was that your favorite show?

MH: Yeah, that Bewitched and The Brady Bunch. I mean it wasn’t like the nighttime. They were already in, whatever you call that.

RS: Right.

MH: Showing after school.

RS: Right, right. Okay.

MH: Partridge Family.

RS: While he was swimming with the snakes. Okay, so, do you recall any, and I say it’s kind of related to TV, any pivotal 00:57:00historical moments as a kid? I guess, I’m thinking for some people that I’ve talked to, like they remember watching, you know, the astronauts land on the moon or whatever on TV. Was there anything like that for you guys that you remember that really stuck out to you on TV that you witnessed, a historical something-or-other?

DH: No.

RS: Because you were outside.

DH: I was outside.

MH: I remember being at my Grandpa Watson’s and there was something going on about the moon and the people, but I didn’t, at the time, realize what it was.

RS: Realize what was going on.

MH: Yeah, and I remember the president, whoever the president was, talking on there about it. But then other historical things I remember Nixon when he left, waving and getting on that plane. Also, because I was interrupted, Sonny and Cher. That was my favorite show. Yeah, but the show that actually IS on TV, you know at nighttime. It wasn’t in syndication was Sonny and Cher.

RS: It was Sonny and Cher.

MH: But I remember that and then Ronald Reagan. 00:58:00I remember when he got shot.

RS: Oh!

MH: Were we married yet then?

RS: You would have been.

MH: That happened in ’81, didn’t it? In January or something or ’81 [March 30, 1981]? It happened around the time we got married, because we got married in January of ’81.

RS: Okay, so, what was medical care like for you growing up? Did you have a family doctor or was it more, did your mom or grandma have remedies or whatever that DH: Just grandma.

RS: Just grandma.

DH: As far as if I had a tooth ache or anything, I remember just dad taking me to Okmulgee or mom just pull it out, you know. That was it. But I never, as far as sickness, I don’t remember going to the doctor. Any broken bones or cuts or anything.

RS: So, you never really had any sort of major illnesses or, I don’t know, anything 00:59:00that you encountered within your family? Just pretty much handled everything at home?

DH: Just relied on grandma.

RS: Did she have particular remedies that she concocted or do you remember?

DH: The one thing I know mom still carried on was she would fix an ear ache.

RS: And how would she do that?

DH: She would get the fat from a skunk.

MH: That’s what I was fixing to say, skunk oil.

DH: Made grease out of it and drop in your ear.

RS: Oh, my goodness!

DH: Actually, I have my cousins call me, probably a couple years ago and asked me if mom was still doing that. I swear she had, she could heal you from anything. Grandma lived to be 91.

RS: Well, I had done an interview with, I didn’t do an interview, 01:00:00excuse me. I worked on a, we had received some cassette tapes from the library. They were old, and one of them that I worked on was Winey Harjo, and I don’t remember how old she was at the time of the interview. I think she was in her 90’s, but she talked about some really interesting remedies and stuff that they did. I think she was born maybe in the late 1800’s, early 1900’s. I mean she was, because the tapes were old, and she was old on the tapes, but I thought it was super interesting, the things that they used just around them to heal, like different things off of trees. It was pretty neat to listen to.

MH: They have medicine that they use for the ceremonials, but then there’s like, I know that his mom would say that’s, that there is the women’s medicine. We had some growing down by the pond. And then she 01:01:00told us what she could do with that helps arthritis and things like that.

RS: I need some of that. That’s interesting. So, how was medical care for you? I’m guessing you probably just had a regular doctor?

MH: I don’t really remember having to go to the doctor. I remember being back here it seemed like I probably seen Dr. Krug for something one time.

RS: Okay.

MH: And I don’t really remember seeing a doctor in California.

RS: Alright, and then, so do you remember as a child what you wanted to be when you grew up?

DH: Not really. Not until I started going to seventh, 01:02:00eighth grade, ninth grade, I wanted to be the first Creek to play in the NBA.

RS: Really?! Well, that’s cool!

DH: My idol was Spud Webb.

RS: Okay.

DH: Because he was only 5’7.

RS: Well, that’s neat. What about you, Monica?

MH: I don’t ever remember wanting to do anything. I don’t know why, but I don’t ever remember saying I want to go to work.

RS: Or to be a particular anything whenever you grew up?

MH: I mean when I was 16 after I had ShaRee, after we had a baby, then I was like I think I want to be a nurse someday.

RS: Right. Well, so, I know that you had an interesting start in life, and I would like for you to tell us about that. I know you got together young and you were, had a baby young, can you tell 01:03:00us about that and your start together in life? So, you met him in eighth grade.

MH: And we got married, we were in the tenth grade.

RS: Got married in the tenth grade.

MH: He went to work for, was it Manpower? Something like that.

DH: Mm-hmm. Through Creek Nation. And I was, worked at the senior citizen in Okemah [Oklahoma]. Which I delivered the food to the elders. And I was just their maintenance guy. I mowed the lawn, do whatever they needed.

RS: And this was at 16, 17?

MH: Sixteen.

RS: Okay.

DH: When I got through, I mean I finished everything, and I asked them what they need, and well, they had me quilting. I was quilting and visiting with the elders there. Some elderly Creek citizens I knew would speak to me in Creek, and, so, I made conversation with them just watch them play dominoes and do whatever. 01:04:00And then they had me doing ceramics, pottery.

RS: You were doing all kinds of things.

DH: I just whatever they needed me to do.

MH: That was January until June, because we got an apartment, one of the Creek Nation apartments.

RS: But, so, you met in eighth grade. You got married in tenth grade because you were pregnant with ShaRee. Okay, and then so he was doing that. You were staying home? You both dropped out of school, right? Okay. And, so then, pick up from there.

MH: Oh, you want me to tell the awkward part about how we didn’t live together or?

RS: Yeah, I mean.

MH: I mean it’s really strange.

RS: No, I want, because I remember you, when we talked before, you telling me about that, so, yes.

MH: Mom said we could get married, but we couldn’t live together until David had a job and could afford to have us a place to live. And, so, which, basically, what it is, is your pregnant back in the day. You need to be married, but I’m not really ready for you to be married 01:05:00and be out of the house.

RS: Right.

MH: I still want you to be my kid. So, he would come over in the evening. Then he’d say good-bye. He’d go to his mom’s house. Then he’d get up and go to work. Then he’d come back the next day. That’s what we did until June, and we got an apartment at, I guess he must have put it in for Creek Nation housing, and they had apartments there, and he was working in Okemah [Oklahoma]. And, so, we’d go down there, and I mean, we don’t have anything except for wedding gifts and, and I had my old stereo and my little pink thing of records, which I still have. And take what little stuff we have down there, but I’m like crying. I’m just, I don’t want to live down there.

RS: So, that was in Okemah [Oklahoma]?

MH: Yes. Seemed a long ways at the time.

RS: Right.

MH: And not to be by my mom, and I don’t know any of these people and they were strangers.

RS: So, were you pregnant at the time or did you already have ShaRee?

MH: No, I’m pregnant.

RS: Pregnant, okay.

MH: And, so, we move our little stuff and we get back, and my grandpa Doug calls. My mom’s dad. And he works at John Cassady (ph), he’s kind of up there at John Cassady (ph), and he called. And it’s not like mom had called him or anything, because we didn’t have cell phones back then, and we just walked in the door, so he called out of the blue 01:06:00and told David there was a welder’s helper job available. And would he want to come to that. Would he want to come apply for it. And, so, David went over there and got that job and we went and got all our little stuff from Okemah [Oklahoma], and ten days later we had an apartment in Stroud [Oklahoma]. June 10th was the first time that we lived together, and so my aunt had told us, Gail, you guys, she didn’t want us to get married. She said you’re not going to even be able to afford pop. She was trying to be on a teenage level, saying you can’t even drink pop. You know, you won’t be able to afford pop and all that. So, when we got married, and we got our little apartment, we bought Kool-Aid and sugar because I knew we couldn’t afford pop. So, they would go to work.

RS: Because you were told you couldn’t afford pop.

MH: Yes, they’d have Kool-Aid. We’d fix supper, do the dishes. We’d drink our Kool-Aid and eat our Cheez-Its and we’d play cards until we saved up and got an Atari. And then we could play Atari after he got home from work. And, then, once we got ShaRee, I’d feed her, his turn I’d give him the baby and the bottle and then I would play Atari, just back and forth. That’s what we did. We went to stomp dance on the weekends and church on Sunday. 01:07:00RS: And this, and so, at this time you guys were, what, probably seventeen when she was born?

MH: No, we were sixteen.

RS: You were still sixteen.

MH: Yes.

RS: Oh, my goodness.

MH: He turned sixteen in November and I turned sixteen in December, and we got married in January.

RS: So, looking back at that and how you guys made it through that, and you know, obviously, you know that’s not, there’s not a lot of success stories from starting off like that. What type of lessons did you learn from your life together starting out in that way? What lessons did you take away from that do you think?

MH: Well, we got saved the next year when we were seventeen and started going to church.

RS: And you feel like that made a huge difference in your?

MH: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Nothing would be like this if it wasn’t for the Lord, and you’re married for life. I mean, that wasn’t even an option. You know, my mom and dad had been divorced. That just wasn’t an option. And I really think because we were so young, we grew up together, and so we liked the same things and learned 01:08:00the same things at the same time.

DH: Even though we are opposite.

MH: Yeah.

RS: Right, right!

MH: Sometimes it’s like we are brother and sister because we argue, not argue, but like, you know just that kind of little thing sometimes it’s a sister, brother thing. It’s kind of weird though.

RS: So, did you have any rough, rough periods since you started off so young together or did you, were you just committed to each other and determined to make it work?

MH: I don’t remember any rough or any problems other than, I mean, we worried probably about finances, but we never missed a bill or, because my mom said you pay all your bills, even if you can’t buy groceries, you pay your bills. And, so, that was a big thing was to our bills.

RS: That’s a lesson that a lot people these days need to learn.

MH: We may eat bologna, which I like bologna and Little Debbie snacks and stuff like that. And I sewed a lot. I sewed our clothes.

DH: Not our clothes, the girls.

MH: Yeah, 01:09:00I didn’t sew your clothes. Not then. I do now, but you would. I remember the first time we went to Anchor and got a hamburger and French fries and brought it home. I felt so, you know when you go and make a big purchase and you kind of worried that you shouldn’t have done that?

RS: Like remorse?

MH: That’s what that hamburger and French fries did. Yes! Just for that, because we didn’t do that. We didn’t spend money like that. You’re making four dollars and something and hour, so you have all these things you’ve got to pay for.

RS: Right.

MH: But I remember that.

DH: Hamburger did taste good.

RS: Oh, I bet! Okay, so tell me the names of your children, their names and their birthdates.

MH: ShaRee Brooke Hill, June 20, 1981.

RS: Okay.

MH: ShaLae Bree Hill [Shaw], July 21, 1982. ShaVon Britt Hill [Agee], March 14, 1986.

RS: And how many grandchildren do you guys have?

MH & DH: Seven.

MH: But we have two great niece and great nephew that ShaRee is raising. 01:10:00RS: Okay, all right. I know we talked a little bit before because of the way your life started out, you guys had dropped out of school, but you both went and got your GED later. You got yours first, was that right?

DH: Mm-hmm.

RS: And then you went into DH: No!

MH: Yes, you got yours first.

RS: The aerospace industry and you told me you went.

MH: It’s kind of that competition thing. Oh, he got a GED. Well, I’m going to go get my GED. And I only missed on problem on my math, and that’s the thing they said no one’s never done that before.

DH: Well, I will say that she can read the day before whatever test and knock it out.

RS: And knock it out of the park.

DH: But me, probably RS: Little more studying?

DH: Two or three months.

RS: Okay, I mean, I guess I want to make sure that it is, you know, 01:11:00like I said, with the way that you started out, I feel like you guys are an absolute success story from how you raised your kids to you both ended up getting your GED’s to you had, what, about a 30-year career in the aerospace industry? You became, Monica, you became a nurse, which tell me about that, getting your RN.

MH: Well, from the time that I had ShaRee, I had, which I thought was a nurse was Beverly, when I was in labor and delivery, and I just loved her. Later, I found out she was a nurse aide, so I didn’t even have to go to school to be a nurse, but anyway, so I thought if I’m ever going to go to work, that’s what I want to be. And, so, that’s what I thought when I got my GED. When my mom, when the oil field went bad, so mom needed to do something else, and so, we decided we were going to go to nursing school.

RS: So, you went to nursing school with your mother?

MH: Yeah, we went to the Tulsa Community College at the time. And, now, I may have told you the first day that we went, and so I took fifteen hours because to get the BIA grant, 01:12:00I had to take fifteen and mom just took twelve. So, when I get home, I never heard of a syllabus, and I thought fifteen hours, that’s nothing. I mean, that’s three days, five days a week. We go to school six or seven, so I’m thinking of normal school.

RS: Right.

MH: So, I get home, and they have these syllabuses and they tell you everything that you’re going to do, all these book reports, all these oral reports you’re going to give in the class. On each one of those classes, and it was just overwhelming, and I was crying, and I was RS: What have I gotten myself into?

MH: Yeah, I was yelling at the couch praying asking Lord, why did you let me do this? And, then, I knew I had to because my mom couldn’t drive to Tulsa all the time for it. And I remember the Swan’s man coming and I was crying when he got there. But, anyway, had it not been for mom, I don’t know that I would have done it, because I still had three little girls. They were in school and stuff like that. And then I also say it has a lot to do with my aunt. Because my aunt, her whole life was about her daughter’s basketball and her school. And, so I thought some day when we don’t have any kids, I don’t want to be where I don’t have anything of my own.

RS: Right.

MH: So, I’ll 01:13:00do that. So, when I went to school to become a nurse, I wasn’t really going to go to work then. It don’t really work like that because you need to work after became a nurse, so that’s how all that happened. Now, David, he got his GED just to have it, because they were offering it. And, then, later, because he worked at John Cassady (ph) and then he went to work for Clyde McGuire to operate the pulling unit. Clyde was really very good to him. He was like a dad to David. He went to church with us, and ended up being our pastor. But when the oil field went bad, he still kept David working welding and making stuff, you know, to make sure he had forty hours. David wanted to do something different. He was interested in the aeronautics and stuff, and so, he started going to school. Was that at Tulsa Air Park? Was that what it was called at the time?

RS: Is that called something different now? Or is it dissolved?

DH & MH: I don’t know.

RS: Don’t know? Okay. I wasn’t sure because I wasn’t familiar with that actual name. I didn’t know if it was like Tulsa Junior College turned into Tulsa Community College.

MH: I didn’t know if Tulsa Air Park is now Tulsa Technology 01:14:00 Center?

DH: I don’t know.

MH: That’s what I was kind of thinking, but I don’t know for sure.

RS: Well, that’s actually something I can look up later. So, then from the oil field, David, you got into the aerospace industry, and you started at Nordam. Is that correct? Can you tell us a little bit about that?

DH: I started, I don’t really want to say, at the very bottom, but just cleaning parts and getting them prepped for paint. And afterwards, I just, I was the type, especially learned the work habits that John Cassady (ph) and Clyde McGuire, you know, just hurry up and get the job done. Go to the next one. So, when I got there, I did the same thing. Just made sure all the parts were clean, so I was running out of parts. So, they started showing me how to, which I already knew how to drill, install rivets and stuff like that, and I just kept on learning.

RS: Started moving up?

DH: Yeah.

RS: Did you enjoy the aerospace industry?

DH: Yeah. 01:15:00I did.

RS: And, was it during that time, that you decided to run for the council? Were you at Nordam?

DH: Yeah, yes, I was at Nordam, and also, before that, I got on the school board at Depew.

RS: Oh, okay.

DH: So, I was doing that.

MH: And the business board at Bristow Community Center, because it was like nineteen years before he from the time he started, he started at Nordam in ’89 and didn’t get on the council until 2008.

DH: Yeah, in between then we started going to the Bristow Indian Community Center. And once I started, I don’t know, probably what a year, not even a year, I knew there was an election coming up, because our former representative, which was George Tiger and Roger Barnett would report to us on what the Nation was doing. I never really was involved with Creek Nation being at that age. Once they started coming, I was kind of interested what they were doing.

RS: Piqued your interest.

DH: I just kind of asked them, so what all do you got to do? 01:16:00Well, the election is coming up. You ought to run. I didn’t have a clue anything about the government side.

RS: How old were you at that time when you decided to run for council?

MH: Forty-three.

RS: And you didn’t really even know what you were getting into, but you felt led to run? Was it because of them?

MH: Well, he was on the business board for the community, so he was doing, like you have Creek Nation then you have your different communities, so he was already at that small side of the community and the casino and that, and so then it was just kind of bigger picture that you would take all of that Creek.

DH: I loved what I was doing on the board. I wanted to do what I can for the school board for the school, for the students, for the teachers. And I figured just bigger picture here on Creek Nation side. You know, I wanted to help our district was Bristow, everyone in Creek District. I wanted to help the citizens. So, that’s what RS: What inspired you. 01:17:00Okay, and then I know when I was talking to Jason [Jason Salsman], he, well, so, Jason feels like you’re very well-respected and that you held a lot of peer-chosen positions within the council. Is that correct?

DH: Once I got on the council, yeah. There was, you serve on different committees. So, I kind of learned from those that served on committee. One was former chief, Bill Fife. Learned a lot from him. I learned quite a bit from them as I got nominated to be like the Sargeant at Arms. I did that for two consecutive terms. Then I went, I was appointed as Second Speaker 01:18:00to two terms consecutive back-to-back. That was interesting. Give you a little bit more responsibility.

RS: And I’m guessing you enjoyed that?

DH: Yeah.

RS: Okay. Was it just then, maybe, like a natural evolution for you to decide to run for Chief? Or what was the deciding factor to push you to want to run for Chief?

DH: I was, actually, asked to run four years before I did.

RS: Really?

DH: But, you know, I just felt like I wasn’t ready. You always get that feeling and, plus, we just prayed a lot. Is this the right thing to do? So, I just decided to wait four years and see how it goes.

RS: And, so, did you learn more, have more positions during that four years that helped you?

DH: That’s when I became Second Speaker.

RS: Okay.

DH: [Indecipherable] Kind of knew more of the government side 01:19:00 business.

RS: Right. I’m sorry. So, what accomplishments are you most proud of during your time as chief? As far as with the Muscogee (Creek) Nation? What things have you accomplished that you’re the most proud of? Because I know that Jason had told me your first year was pretty rough because there was Covid, I think McGirt, you had a ransomware attack, and he said it was just a matter of like, you felt like you were putting out fires for the first year, and it was really hard to accomplish anything, but I know, since then, he told me some things that.

MH: You can tell him and remind him. I said let her tell you, so she can remind you.

DH: Yeah. I mean, you don’t realize a lot of stuff that happened. Just 01:20:00like I said, during the Covid years, the first January/February, I think, we was first brought to our awareness of Covid. Then all that happened. I think it was March 13th when I done the, declared natural, whatever you call it. Executive order that, then the ruling come out Supreme Court, I mean, from there you just get the domino effect, because Covid, now I’m worried about the elderly getting sick. Because we lost a lot in the last probably two years, first year of Covid, probably, approximately two hundred. You know, those were the elders, most fluent speakers, most people that knew tradition, cultural and history. We lost all that. Pastors.

RS: Devastating. I mean that’s devastating.

DH: But, you know, we still had to conduct business, so I had that going. 01:21:00Trying to decide what to do and try to get all my cabinet in place.

RS: So, I feel like it was, maybe, a good thing that you waited the four years and got more prepared, because you were pretty much thrown into the fire whenever you started.

DH: That’s one of the things, you know, during other interviews, the former chief. There wasn’t a play book in front of me to say, here’s what you do during Covid years.

RS: Right.

DH: Here’s what you do in supreme court. I mean, we just had to start from scratch. And it was a learning curve because I couldn’t make all the decision, so I had to appoint people whose best in that field. As far as [indecipherable] in the health division. You know, that was their first time, too. So, there’s nights we talked to each other 10, 11, 12, midnight. What are we doing to do? First thing is trying to take care of the people. But also, run the business 01:22:00side, too, so my former Chief of Staff and Second Chief, all of us, we had to sit down and try to create a plan. What do we do now? We just started gradually, plus, you know, we are working with some of the National Council reps. There was some that, even though I served with them, some for twelve years, eight years, four years, and they more of my heart. I want to do what’s best for the nation. But you still had a couple of them that would vote no against me on anything. Try to stop the progress of what we was doing, but we just had to do a work around.

MH: Their chief didn’t win, so they DH: They retained their seats. So, once they do that, they’re upset.

RS: Right.

DH: But we had to do a work around. We found ways to still be productive on how to run business.

RS: I know Jason [Jason Salsman] had mentioned that one of the, I guess, bigger accomplishments was the 01:23:00brand-new complex. That was something that had carried through several terms of other chiefs, but that you guys made it happen.

DH: Every administration always have a master plan of what they’re going to do. I think Chief Ellis [A.D. Ellis] done it. Chief Tiger [George Phillip Tiger] did it. And Chief Floyd [James R. Floyd] did it, but they always done their own. But I just took the one that Chief Floyd had, and I said, we just need to do it.

RS: Right.

DH: And when I had my cabinet in there, it’s kind of fun. They always tell people that I had first couple of cabinet meetings that we’re sitting in, they would always ask me questions. Well, how do we, what do you want to do, Chief? And I said, well, what do you mean? So, they’ll bring the issues of concerns or how to move forward. I said, all right, I’ll let you know the end of the day. So, I asked my former Chief of Staff, Greg Anderson, I said why are they asking me? I said, I’m used to having, 01:24:00I don’t want to say knowledge or leadership at Nordam, but I said, you know if I did this at Nordam, I said, they would ask you. They would ask you. That’s why I hired you for this position.

RS: Right.

DH: I said, if I’m having to tell them every day what to do, I said, I don’t need them. I said, why is it like that? He said, well, he said that’s how the former administration was. Everything had to go through him. I said, well, I’m not like that. So, they come back the next meeting.

RS: So, basically, you wanted to be able to delegate and trust them to handle, to make those decisions.

DH: That’s kind of how I approached them. Right before the meeting, or kind of midway through the meeting, giving me the same answers. Well, you know, what do you think? I said, I’m buying every one of y’all a Nike shirt. I said do y’all know what that Nike shirt slogan is? They all looked and said Just Do It.

RS: Just do it!

DH: I said that’s just kind of the way Ray Siegfried, who I consider 01:25:00my mentor at Nordam. You know, we gonna make mistakes. We gonna learn by our mistakes, but we just grow from that. And that’s what I told them. So, if one of them would sit over here next to me and ask question, I said, what shoes you got on? They would know and just look. I said, okay.

RS: I like it.

DH: So, that’s kind of the way we started out, but again, it’s one of the situations where you have to put people in there that you trust.

RS: Right.

DH: I have to trust them as much as they’re going to trust me. And there’s some that had left, but I feel like I have a good solid team.

RS: You have a good team.

DH: And I told them we got four years to make a big impact. Even though we did the last two years, you know the first two years was tough. But it also, during the Covid years, I will say, that it showed, I don’t want to say weakness, but improvement. Like our IT. Everything was going to Zoom, so our technology, we had to redo, we had to redo all that. Everything was Zoom now, you 01:26:00know. Couldn’t meet in person. I’m still dressed like this coming into work even though we always tease about that, but there’s just a change of culture. At Nordam I tried to bring what I learned. And if you ever work in tribal government, that is hard. You pretty much figure 50-60% are all related, so if you’re in the HR department, that’s going to be tough, because you’re going to have to, and most of them probably have individuals that are related in their department that you have to write up. You’re going to have to fire.

RS: Right.

DH: And it’s hard for them. We tried to implement new stuff what we need to do. And it’s just a mind thing. Well, that’s the way it’s always been. And I said I’ve heard that at Nordam, because I try to use it when we implement new technology or new software. It took me a while to get used to it, because I hated it. I’m used to this.

RS: Right.

DH: Not knowing that in the future, running it and the new system is going to be better.

RS: Better.

DH: And 01:27:00that was hard to implement the first couple of years. They finally got used to it, though.

RS: Well, that’s good. And a couple of other things, I know that Jason [Jason Salsman] had mentioned that you were responsible for maternity leave for DH: Yeah, I listened to one of my employees. Whitney, she’s one of my legislative clerks. She writes all the laws, the stuff that I need, we need to implement, and she brought that to my attention. Same thing, I said, you think that’s a good idea? She said, yeah. I said, well, do the research. So, actually, she’s the one that brought it forth, and we sat down and talked about it. She appreciated it. She said you’re the first, she said I brought this up to the last two administrations. I said, well, I’m here to make it better. My door is always open, so that was one of the, basically, one 01:28:00of the first things we did in office.

RS: Well, I know one thing that Jason [Salsman] kept kind of saying over and over is your compassion, caring about the people, that sometimes it’s what can the position do for me versus what can I do for the people, and that you’re not like that. You’re there to help the people. And I think it’s pretty evident by your leadership and how everyone speaks of you that I’ve talked to. And Jason just thinks you’re wonderful, and so from that, we’ll transition into some of your accolades. I saw where you were Time Magazine’s one of 2020’s most 100 Most Influential People. Can you tell me about that?

DH: That 01:29:00was, didn’t know what to think. I received that email, and I forwarded it to Jason [Salsman], and I said look at this. Is this legit? I said, I don’t know, why? Why me?

MH: No, you sent it to me.

DH: I sent it to you and Jason [Salsman].

MH: And what’d I say?

DH: I don’t know.

MH: It’s a scam! Do not respond. It’s a scam! It’s not true.

DH: So, Jason [Salsman] called them, and he come running back in the office and said, Chief, he said that is for real! I said, why? I mean, why me? He said, I don’t know. So, we and come to find out, Sharice Davids, the councilwoman from Kansas had submitted the letter to Time Magazine.

RS: Oh!

DH: And that’s how it come about. But it was strange. I never expected that.

RS: So, what did that entail, as far as, was there like a ceremony 01:30:00or anything?

DH: Usually there is, but there was Covid.

RS: Oh, shoot! It was, wasn’t it?!

DH: It only showed on TV.

MH: They usually have a gala and everything, but not that year.

RS: Oh, man!

MH: Did get invited the next year was it?

DH: Next year, two years afterwards.

MH: Yeah, you’ve been invited, I guess, every year, every June to come to their thing in New York. We went one time.

RS: I mean, that’s quite, that’s quite an honor, I mean.

DH: And it’s to meet the people, I never would expect it. Both of us. Sometimes just me, you know. Bill Gates was there.

RS: Jason [Salsman] had mentioned that, that it was kind of like sitting there thinking DH: We’re sitting in the front row.

RS: Like what in the world?!

DH: He went with us. Because I could only invite one. And I said, hey, I need my PR to come with me, so I brought Jason [Salsman] with us. That’s where the girls got mad. He got to go and they didn’t. I 01:31:00had to give all the credit to Jason, too. Because we was on Time Magazine. Nightline. They came and did an episode. They stayed with me for a whole week. Went down to mom’s. They interviewed, we were sitting, me and my brothers and with mom. They said just five, ten minutes, whatever. Just ask her a question about, they just want to hear her speak in the language. So, we asked her what happened on Trail of Tears. Can you tell us who, do you remember? And she did mention her grandmother telling stories of what happened. And she probably went twenty minutes. Finally had to stop her. Hey that’s good enough. After we got through it, that’s where I mentioned earlier, I asked my brother, Sammy, I said I kind of like a little bit of that what mom was saying in Creek. I said, what did she say? He said, I don’t know. She spoke in the old language. So, we asked our sisters, you know, do y’all know what mom said? Said 01:32:00no, she went back in the old language. So, none of us, they’re supposed to send me a copy of with what mom said, but no one.

RS: So, nobody even knows what she said?

DH: Huh-mm.

RS: Oh, shoot!

DH: Part of it, she did mention, from what I understand about grandma, great-grandma, I guess walked on the Trail of Tears kind of in the weather and stuff like that is about all I can catch.

RS: All you can get out of it.

DH: Just that.

MH: It’s recorded though.

DH: National Geographic.

MH: Oh, that was special.

DH: They had me at River Spirit [Casino], which Monica and Jason went. They took photos, and we met the other four tribes, Seminole, Choctaw, Cherokee and Chickasaw tribal leaders at Oklahoma City. And we’re all taking pictures. They said they’ll be 2023. Supposed to come out the summer before. It finally came out 2022. 01:33:00MH: I can’t remember. I just know that the other chiefs weren’t in it. It was only him.

DH: Yeah, when it come out, it only showed me. But, you know, things like that, I never dreamed. Because I do have a book, 1973, I believe, National Geographic. There is photos of our ceremonial ground, and there’s a picture of my dad and a lot of the ceremonial ground men members doing the feather dance. There was a picture of dad in there.

RS: Oh! That’s neat!

MH: So, it was pretty neat that he had that with his dad, and then all these years later, they had him.

RS: SO special!

DH: I think Jason [Salsman] posted that on our Facebook page.

RS: On your Facebook.

MH: Just like when Charley Coker was fought against the allotment fought for that reservation, you know, and then DH: 113 years later, 20/20 when I’m in office, that’s when the supreme court ruling come out.

RS: Right. Well, I have to say, just from what I know of you, that you seem like a very 01:34:00low key individual and that, I guess, all of the spotlight might be kind of uncomfortable for you or that’s not where you’re most comfortable at is in the spotlight, that you’re there to do a job and take care of your people and.

DH: That’s what I thought. Even our hotel at the casino, when me and Monica, they had to have a room, the top floor is just designated for me.

MH: Not the whole top floor, but DH: Well, it is almost.

MH: It’s like a 2000 square foot.

DH: It’s the very end. The king suite. I don’t know why, oh, it’s the Chief’s Suite.

RS: The Chief’s Suite. Well, that makes sense.

DH: So, we, it would take probably me and Monica thirty minutes just to get to our room, because everyone wants to stop and, you know, they want to shake hands, talk. Because I talk to all the employees.

RS: Right.

DH: Even when we get through, me and Monica, we’ll walk down and I get a cup of coffee and just walk the whole floor.

MH: It took us two hours, one time, 01:35:00from the elevator to the door.

RS: Oh, my goodness!

DH: Because people want to talk. They just want to talk.

RS: Right.

DH: And I heard one comment from one of the employees had told one of the managers, said he just stopped and talked and we talked about OU football. He said I never been able to talk to anyone like that, that just RS: Because they don’t expect you to be a regular guy, I guess, because you’re the Chief.

DH: That’s even going out of state. Some different conferences that Monica goes with me. I get approached by other tribal leaders from other tribes. I mean, they just, what’s happened with the supreme court ruling really, like I said, the spotlight. It’s just not me.

RS: Have you gotten more comfortable with in that position of being in the spotlight? Because being a low-key kind of quiet, seems to me, individual that would be, I guess it just goes with the territory?

MH: I think he’s more comfortable.

DH: Yeah.

MH: I’m more comfortable. 01:36:00I don’t have to worry as much what he’s going to say or do. I’m like, oh gosh…oh Lord help him, oh Lord help him.

DH: She’ll be back there saying MH: Now I’ve got to cut him off.

DH: You know, I got invited to different things in D.C. I can’t remember that one event, but I was the first tribal leader to attend. It was like for the republican MH: It was all the supreme court judges.

DH: Yeah, it was all the supreme court judges. All the different people congress and senators at this event. And here I am, somebody from Gypsy, Oklahoma. I’m just sitting there. The lady that invited me, she’s an attorney. So, I’m getting ready, and Monica’s just teasing, she said, you know I’m helping my husband get ready for his date. You know, she comes to pick me up.

MH: I went down there and took a picture of them. She kept sending DH: Kind of like a prom date, you know.

MH: She kept sending me pictures. I guess she was just having 01:37:00him meet everybody because she’d send a picture of him and this judge and him and this judge and him and DH: And I asked for a cup of coffee. It was like a little tea cup. I took a picture of that and said, look what I’m drinking, you know. Just things that I never would have dreamed would be happening.

RS: Right. Well, I mean, that’s why I say I feel like you’re a, both, like a self-made success story from start to finish. And your story is MH: Oh, I don’t know about that, but just RS: It’s amazing!

MH: Strange opportunities and things happen that you’re not expecting or even think about, like those things that those awards and things and then that leads to this, and you meet this person or this person, and we went up there to a play, one of our citizens did a play on the far end, and we went to watch that. And, so, we go to dinner first with these people and this, one of the judges are there, and they sit me beside him, and I’m like oh no, put David by him, and they said no they’re doing man, woman and our AG walks 01:38:00in. Well, sit her by him, so that they can talk law stuff. I don’t know about talking law stuff. They said, no, that’s why we want you there. So, he had already talked to David and met David and seen him play basketball. He was in basketball, and so, he tells me about how David, well some things I’m not supposed to tell, but anyway he played basketball at this place and how good he was. He says people tell me all the time that they can play basketball and they’ll take their jackets off. He said he just shot in his suit and zoom, zoom, zoom. He said, so tell me, where’d you guys meet? And I was like, at a basketball game. I mean, who would think I’d be sitting next to a supreme court judge talking about basketball.

RS: Basketball. Yeah, from Gypsy, Oklahoma. You know.

DH: Then we got to go to California and walk the red carpet.

MH: Oh! Reservation Dogs. Yeah.

DH: The Reservation Dogs.

RS: Oh, yeah!

DH: They did their premier, and me and Monica and [indecipherable] and his wife are just walking up to the red carpet, and all them young actors, D’Pharaoh 01:39:00[D’Pharaoh Woon-A-Tai] MH: Now we didn’t know it was such a big thing. I mean, they came and had a dinner thing and met them, you know, D’Pharaoh, he thinks David, he’s just, oh, I’ve always wanted to meet you. And I’m thinking, he don’t even know him. But anyway, oh I wanted to meet you, too! But I guess he’d heard about him. So, when we go to do that, but we didn’t know it was such a big thing until we got to Hollywood, and there’s like all these different bulletin boards.

DH: Signs, billboards.

MH: And on the subway, I mean, the buses and everything, they’re thing, I’m like, well, this must be a bigger thing than I realized. We’re walking down the sidewalk and they’re doing pictures with that screen thing behind it. He sees David and he starts jumping up and down and yelling, probably about a half a block away, Chief, Chief, Chief! And, so, he’s in the picture, when they put it on Nightline, they take the picture of the video of David there with him talking. I’m thinking, they think he’s part of them. He is NOT. Someone thought he was Sterlin [Sterlin Harjo], and I was like, no. Look at him. They think he’s RS: So, on that same line, because I personally 01:40:00want to know, how did you meet Mo [Mo Brings Plenty] from Yellowstone? Because I’ve actually seen him at the basketball games, which is, you know, an odd, it’s cool, but I love him on Yellowstone, and then I know he’s hung around here some with you. So, how did you end up meeting him?

DH: It was MH: Rez at Las Vegas.

DH: Well, I didn’t personally know him then.

MH: Well, that’s the first time DH: I saw him because they interviewed him saying that he’s going to run for president, because we was eating and having lunch. And afterwards, I got a call from another tribal leader, said hey, I got Mr. Mo Brings Plenty wants to talk to you, Chief. I said, okay. I didn’t know who he was. We didn’t watch Yellowstone, so I didn’t know he was an actor. Said, okay. Said you got his number? So, we call, and he said we are doing a movie of Bass Reeves. He said we want to keep it authentic. He said I’m looking for someone that can speak the language and also write, 01:41:00a good teacher. I said, okay. I said, well, we are actually having our intertribal meeting here at River Spirit [Casino] with the five tribes if you want to come. So, he shows up.

MH: And I’m thinking the guy that we seen that’s going to run for president.

DH: So, I told Monica. So, he showed up. I got him a room and everything. He walked down with us, and all the women just went crazy. And me and Monica saying who is this guy? Finally got to talk to him and he was standing there, and I said, we’re actually having our ribbon dance at our ceremonial ground if you want to come. He said, yeah, I’ll come with you. So, we go down and he’s sitting with mom and he eats with us at our camp.

RS: And are you still at this time not fully aware of who he is?

DH: Oh, we are now.

RS: You knew now, okay. I mean at the time that you invited him down to the dance and all that.

DH: We just stayed close friends.

RS: Yeah, well that’s so cool!

DH: He actually had me wanted to know if I wanted to be 01:42:00in the movie Bass Reeves [Lawman: Bass Reeves], so me and Solomon did that.

RS: Oh, okay.

DH: I think it was Episode Two. [Inaudible] DH: About two seconds of fame.

RS: That’s out now, isn’t it?

DH: Mm-hmm.

RS: Is it on Paramount?

DH: I believe so.

RS: Yeah.

DH: Soloman, he stayed. He’s probably in eight, nine scenes.

RS: Oh, wow. Well, how fun!

MH: Came back after that dance that first time, back to the house. And I felt bad because everyone was all crazy, so finally I just said, Mo, we haven’t seen Yellowstone. My mom and sister tried to watch it, but they said it’s just too bad. And he said, yeah, it’s pretty bad sometimes. And he said that he, because you just go there and do your parts, and he doesn’t cuss. He doesn’t drink. And it’s really surprising, because you think actors are that. But he’s not, so.

RS: Well, we love it. We love Yellowstone at our house. So, I was already a big fan of him, and then when I realized that, like you knew him, and Rick [Shaw] had said, oh yeah, 01:43:00Mo’s been down at David and Monica’s house, and I’m like, WHAT?!

MH: We’ve done a lot of things together. He’s really special.

DH: He come down to the festival.

MH: And, Sara [Sarah Ann Haney-Brings Plenty], his wife is so sweet.

DH: Yeah. They’re both. He wanted me to ride in a parade with him.

MH: He did that and a meet and greet, but he ended up staying last year. He brought Cole [Cole Brings Plenty 8/18/1996-4/5/2024] with him.

DH: He stayed Friday, Saturday, Sunday at the rodeo. He stayed at the rodeo, him and Sara, but Cole did a fashion show. Yeah, we just stayed close friends after that. He came to Hokte softball game, came to the basketball game…football game, the boys.

MH: Yeah, came to the basketball game.

RS: I know I had seen him at the basketball games whenever the girls were DH: He lives in Kansas, so. He feels like, because all his family are in South Dakota.

RS: Oh, okay.

DH: So, we’re kind close.

RS: Extended family?

DH: Yeah, he will just text back and forth, and calls me cuz.

MH: David 01:44:00had went out the room during the festival. We were eating and he just started telling the people that was there at the from the first time that he met David, that he had a connection with him as if he was just like his family, and so, he’s just always felt that way.

RS: Aw, well that’s neat. Well, it’s been quite a journey, I would say for you.

DH: Oh, yeah.

RS: For both of you.

MH: We met some other guy, because I think we meet people that we don’t realize that DH: Who the they are.

MH: Who they are or anything, so we were at festival and this guy comes up and he was doing movie, he’s a producer, I guess. We didn’t know, he was with another friend of ours that helped with our campaign that’s a model and actor. He’s been wanting to meet David and everyone said, he won’t meet you. He’s too busy. He don’t have time, you know. He came up to meet and greet, and so, we talked for an hour, and then RS: And who was this?

DH: Shep MH: Yeah, John Shepherd (ph).

DH: The one that’s doing the movie now that’s down here.

RS: Oh, okay. OH! Okay. The one that’s on main right now?

MH: Yeah. They text Saturday 01:45:00and said we’re filming today. Do you and David want to come down. I said, well, David is out on the mower and we’re doing our sovereignty day fireworks tonight. I’m doing all this cooking. I don’t know if I’ll have time to run down there or not, you know. I did get the [indecipherable] and seen where they were. I didn’t even know that’s where they were.

RS: Right.

MH: I said, but if y’all get done early, come eat. I’m cooking. Rick’s [Shaw] cooking, smoking some pork butt.

DH: Cook out.

MH: Yeah, and so, a little bit later that evening, they text and said, we’re on our way. So, they came to the house. They stayed until about 11, 11:30 and just visited and visited, and so, he’s a Christian. Mr. [indecipherable]. He did a lot of movies with a Billy Graham movies.

RS: Okay.

MH: And stuff, and so he’s doing this one. And I said, well, I told him about our church. And he said, I just might come down, and sure enough, Sunday morning, he showed up.

DH: Showed up Sunday.

MH: Then we went and ate at Los Arcos.

RS: Well, how cool.

MH: And then Monday night we had a, he met John and them are ambassador and his wife at our house. And I knew that they were, I thought it would be good if he 01:46:00was there with them, because they could really visit about some things. So, they did. We went to [indecipherable] DH: Documentary thing.

MH: And he came there, too. So, when we got done, he said, well family, what’s next? What are we going to next? I said, well, if you’re still here next week, Sunday, come to church. Because he told the pastor, well, the pastor’s wife knew who he was, and so, when DH: I think she was googling him.

MH: She had been watching, I guess, that movie stuff, and so she knew all kinds of stuff about him. So, she went up and visited him. So, that’s when I really found out about him was stuff that she had knew.

RS: She had found.

MH: So, anyway, he said there’s quite a few Christians on the set, and so, he was going to see if they wanted to come, too. But he hadn’t been to a church like that. In California, he said, you don’t have churches like that where people raise their hands and praise the Lord. And I kind of figured that. People out there that live like that, they write movies and stories about people like this, like us, so, I thought they probably would like to see the real people like us.

RS: Right, right.

MH: Then we don’t expect ever have anything to do with people like that, and we don’t know 01:47:00that they are people like that, so we just treat them like they are ours. Go to church with us! Come and eat come barbeque!

RS: Well, I think that’s really neat.

MH: I think it’s best to know people before they’re, that you don’t know that they’re famous. I don’t feel anything like that for Mo because I don’t know Mo as that. I just knew Mo as this, and so RS: Well, and I can’t say that I’m like a real star-struck person, either. I just like to know people, and like you say, that’s probably the best way to do it because, you know, you’ve gotten to be friends with them before they even, you realized, you know, who they are or what.

MH: He’s just the best person, the best heart. About everybody. He cares about the natives, the native kids, but he cares about all kids and all races. He wants to get along with everybody. And everybody do things for each other.

RS: Right.

MH: Pull everybody together and make life better for everybody.

DH: The other exciting thing I got to do was go to Harvard.

MH: Oh, I forgot about that.

RS: You went to Harvard?

DH: Yeah, me and Jason [Salsman]. They interviewed 01:48:00us, speak to the classroom, so we get through, and we say we want you to sign a book. So, I went in and this actual book when the visitors come. What’s that prince’s wife? What’s her name?

MH: Oh, um. Who’s the prince?

RS: Kate? Kate Middleton?

MH: Was it Kate Middleton?

DH: Kate, yeah.

RS: Kate Middleton?

DH: Yeah, I signed right behind her.

RS: Oh, my goodness!

DH: And I thought, what am I doing signing, you know at Harvard.

RS: Oh, my goodness!

DH: It was just things like that.

RS: Blows your mind. Yeah, that’s crazy.

MH: Oh, and they did a documentary. I don’t know if you’ve heard about that.

RS: I haven’t.

MH: Bad Press.

RS: The what?

MH: Bad Press. So, when he was running for Chief, they wanted to know if they could follow us. They were following several of the candidates, you know. And I thought, I understood that it was about DH: Elections.

MH: Yeah, native elections is what, tribal elections. So, they were with us a lot. Wherever we went, they went. Came to the house 01:49:00and helped us cook when we had our little get-togethers and stuff. And, so DH: Watch party.

MH: Yeah, watch party. So, years later, it finally comes out, but at the same time during the election, they were also fighting for free press. We had a free press, but then the former chief decided that he wanted to put that back under the chief. So, that they had a little more control. So, they wrote legislation and David opposed it and fought it and they finally got it. Anyway, so, that was the was the fight during the election, too, because it had a lot to do with about them maybe not wanting some things to come out and stuff, so, after David is elected, they end up taking it to a, the constitution and making it an amendment in the constitution, because then whatever chief is there can’t change it. So, we did finally get free press. But, really, it made the story more about that about how it was. So, David has quite a bit of parts. We had to sign, I was really worried, they didn’t show me that much, but it’s funny, everybody RS: So, was it like 01:50:00a documentary?

MH: It’s a documentary. Yeah.

RS: And what’s it called?

MH: Bad Press.

RS: Bad Press.

MH: Yeah, it won a lot of awards at, what’s that, that thing that they have, those DH: Journalism?

MH: No, those RS: Like the, I think I know what you’re MH: Festivals, what is that one festival?

RS: Yes.

MH: Sundance!

RS: Yes, Sundance.

MH: It’s been all over.

RS: Okay, that’s something else I’m going to have to look at.

DH: Jason [Salsman] was there. He never seen it. And that was the first time Jason seen it there, but there’s some parts in there that I kind of wish they would have…I’m trying to do my campaign sign. That’s before I had my knee surgery. So, there’s sign all up and down the road, so I’m trying to find one because it’s gravel. They showed the whole thing!

MH: It took forever! I was in the car. I was like I’m not getting out there where the camera is. It took him forever, but instead of just waiting, no they make you see all of everybody else’s signs and they do that. But they were showing what an underdog he was.

RS: Right.

MH: Because he was really and underdog. He’s getting 01:51:00in his little Honda vehicle and we’re doing this and then the other guy’s in one of those like spider vehicle, Batman-looking vehicles, and you know.

RS: Do you ever just look at your life and go what in the world?! I mean, can you even believe where you’re at now? Or do you feel like you were destined to be where you are?

DH: I don’t really look at it that way.

RS: You don’t look at it that way? You’re just thankful for the journey?

DH: Mm-hmm.

MH: I think he just don’t have time to stop and think about it.

DH: Yeah, probably.

RS: Well, I think right now that probably is the case, because you are SO busy all the time. Well, as we wrap up this interview, I’m wondering do each of you, do you have any wisdom that you would like to share for future generations to draw from whether it be, you know, from a married perspective or a work perspective…do you have any general 01:52:00advice or wisdom that you would like to share for future generations? I want both of you to answer.

MH: I’d have to think a while. I could really come up with something good if I thought a while. Number one is the Lord first. The Lord first and He will take of everything. Even when things look bleak, there’s a reason for it. You don’t know what it is, but it always works out, so I would say that. And care about other people, because that’s what David is, is a servant leader, and he has a heart for the people. Everyone said that. He has a heart for the…he does. And sometimes, they come before everybody else, but that’s okay, because we all got on board. The whole family got on board and knew that this is what this was going to be. I was, at first, I really…can’t we just stay on the council? I told a friend of ours, you know, Blaine was two when he got on the council. If he’s chief, Blaine will be out of high school by the time he’s done those first four years. And she said, yeah, but look he’s going to leave him a legacy, 01:53:00and I didn’t really see the legacy at the time, but then after he got in there and everything happened, it’s like oh yeah, this is a once in a lifetime thing that would ever happen to a chief of Muscogee (Creek) Nation. But it’s mainly the whole family had to be ready to give and okay with it.

RS: So, for you it’s the Lord first, to take care of other people. Is there anything else you want to add to that?

MH: Yeah, when I was in nursing school, this is what our instructor said, the Lord is first. You are second, which I have a hard time with, but they said if you don’t take care of yourself, you’re not there to then help your family.

RS: Right.

MH: And so, I don’t always do that, but that’s what I tell people.

RS: What about you, David? Do you have any wisdom to share?

DH: I’m trying to think. Because some of the questions I was asked like, what would you change? Is there anything that you would change, you would have done differently? My decision 01:54:00was no. Because, you know after me and Monica got married and had ShaRee, I had some say I should have went back to school to play basketball. Well, if I did, we probably wouldn’t have had ShaLae. Probably wouldn’t have had ShaVon. And that’s, basically, what I told them. I said you’re going to come up in situations throughout, but you never question why it happened. Be hard for me to go back and change anything that happened or we’d never would run into things we are doing now. That’s one of my cabinet members had mentioned, he said you’re, you think before you make the decision, similar to Mekko at ceremonial ground. He said, because if you ask someone to make the decision right then or ceremonial ground [indecipherable], they would think about it and they will bring the members like on Sunday whenever they have their meeting. Each Sunday they talk about it. He said 01:55:00then he’ll make decision on what he feels best. He said, most Mekkos won’t make a quick decision.

RS: Rash decision.

DH: Yeah. And even I had to tell one attorney, she was an attorney for one of our ceremonial grounds. She was asked, well, we need to know decision [indecipherable] I finally had to call her, and I said, hey, you do remember how the ceremonial ground works? The chief would think about it. He would bring it to the citizens. He will bring to ground members, to the men. Then he will come back and make a decision. They said, so you’re similar to that. You kind of bring the traditional way with a lot of stuff you’re doing now. But I don’t know, just what Monica said. You do have to keep the Lord first.

RS: Well, and I also think for when you’re talking about, would you change anything, MH: It might mess it up.

RS: If you change something, you’re who you are 01:56:00because of where you came from, you know. And your life experiences, good and bad.

DH: It’s like someone asked me before, if you had to go back in time, where would you like to go? I would definitely like to go back in time 1492 before Columbus came, you know, but then I said, I would like to go back when my great-grandpa, Charley Coker, was in this battle. Seeing the stuff I’ve seen now, I would have prevented it if I was with him. But we probably wouldn’t be here where we are at today.

RS: Right.

DH: So, I’d definitely like to see what would happen back in time, but RS: So, do you have any advice for from a different perspective of, say, maybe a family that started out like yours did with a teen pregnancy and a young marriage. Do you have any advice 01:57:00for, I guess, persevering through that situation, either of you?

MH: First of all, I say, 1981 was very different from right now.

RS: Right, yeah.

DH: It is. I mean, it’s kind of hard to give an advice, because, like I said, it’s back then, it was totally different.

RS: SO different.

DH: Than what it is now of the way people see it compared to both generations.

RS: Well, but, I mean to even persevere together, like you stayed together. I don’t think that MH: We didn’t know anything different.

RS: The commitment factor, I guess, is something that I feel kind of lacks in today’s world.

DH: And we hate to fail, I mean, even our daughters are the same way.

RS: Right.

DH: You hate to fail of doing something, 01:58:00and I guess that’s part of it, too.

RS: You’re driven.

DH: We don’t want to fail.

RS: You’re driven to succeed. Okay. Well, thank you so much for sharing your time and your lives with me today. Please know this interview will become an important part of our ongoing oral history archive at the museum. And on behalf of the Bristow Historical Society, we thank you very much for your time.

DH & MH: Thank you.