Virgil Rufus Vann

BM: --seventy-six, five p.m.

MM: Alright, now--

BM: Your first--

MM: Just a minute, back up, see if it's recording right quick.

BM: Your first teacher was, the first teacher that you went to was who?

VV: [Indecipherable] the best I can remember, it might've been someone else before that, but--

BM: You don't know what year it was she told him, huh?

CV: So she was teaching--

BM: So what year did you start school?

VV: I think it was 1910, I'm pretty sure it was.

BM: Alright, then she had to have been the teacher there in 1910.

VV: Is that the way you got it wrote?

BM: No, that's not the way I got it, but--

MM: Well, she could've taught more than one--

VV: Well, now, I wouldn't be positive on that, I just wouldn't be sure.

CV: Five years later we moved up there and she was teaching then.

VV: She was?

CV: So she might not be teaching

VV: She must've--somebody else must've--you don't know what year Etta Logan--

BM: Yeah, that was before that.

VV: Before '10?

BM: Yeah.

VV: It was. I know I went to school with her, didn't I?

CV: I did.

BM: No, Etta Logan was after Ella.

CV: Yeah.

MM: We may have that in some of that papers

BM: Naw, I ain't got any of that with me.

VV: [Indecipherable.]

BM: That damn thing, got it runnin' now?

MM: Yeah, it is.

CV: Didn't you say [indecipherable]

BM: When you first moved in here to go to Pinehill School where did you live at that time, Virgil?

VV: Over on the Elsa Self place

BM: You lived on the Elsa Self place.

VV: Yeah.

BM: Do you remember offhand the kids that went to school with you at that time?

VV: Well there was Howard Baker (ph) and Matt Baker (ph) and Charlie Line (ph) and Laurie (ph) and Mary Vaughn (ph) and there was boys, Earl Phillips (ph), I think, [indecipherable] Phillips, Carl and Dewey Carson (ph) I believe, anyway I wouldn't be sure.

CV: Well, the Indians--

BM: The Indian kids--

VV: Leo Pinehill, I believe he went to school there, Walt Biggs (ph), and the Wilton (ph) boys, Esco (ph) and Lester (ph) I believe. What year was it that Alvin got killed, do you remember?

CV: I think we figured that out.

BM: Fifteen.

CV: Ware. The Ware (ph) boys.

VV: Huh?

BM: The Ware (ph) kids.

VV: Yeah. Yeah that's right. Oh there's probably some more but I honestly it's out of my mind.

BM: Okay, did you--what all activities was the school used for?

VV: Well, community purposes, pie suppers and literaries and kangaroo courts, why nearly anything that people in the community--

CV: Church.

VV: --wanted to use it for, why it was open. It was open to the public, you know.

BM: Every kind of activities for the community, community purposes.

VV: Yeah, that's right. And church purposes, you know, they had church there, pretty regular all the time.

BM: Now when you first went to go to school there, do you remember these old literaries?

VV: Yeah, I remember very well. They'd have programs, you know, people would sing songs and different things. Anything that people, any kind of gathering 00:05:00that they wanted, why they was open to the public, you know.

MM: Kangaroo courts?

VV: Huh?

BM: Kangaroo courts, uh, was that, uh, kangaroo courts, was that held as a, one of these literaries or was that--

VV: Well it just seemed to me like they would have literaries, what you mean by "literaries" is they just had songs, you know, and things like that and to entertain the people, you know.

BM: Now this kangaroo court that you was talkin' about a while ago, uh, was that officially or was that a, held as a dialogue at these get-togethers on Friday night?

VV: No, during literaries they didn't have no dialogues in their programs, you 00:06:00know. They had school programs. They only had dialogues, you know, on the last day of school they'd have a program, you know. They'd have dialogues and speeches and [indecipherable].

MM: What did you do after the literaries?

BM: What did you do after the literaries?

VV: Sometimes we'd have a pitch game. (laughs)

BM: Pitch game?

VV: Yeah. The boys would. And then we all got scared one night and we saw the community got tired of it, they got that--they didn't like it a bit in the world, the board didn't like it, 'cause we was havin' a pitch game. We didn't mean nothin' by it, just passin' the time off. I remember one night we'd just got started, you know, and somebody rattled the door, it's under the law, they'd 00:07:00already warned us. And "Stop that thing!" And somebody rattled and took ahold of the knob and pulled out on the door, tried to break it in. And we had a lock, you know, but they began to shake it and we all broke out of there. Somebody, I remember, someone, they went out, they kicked a big old chair right in the door and we finally just leaped over that chair, hit the ground, and I remember, it kinda knocked the breath out of me when I went over. (chuckling) It gave us such a scare that that ended the pitch game. We never did try that anymore. That was orneriness. And, oh, I don't know what made us do that, but we didn't mean nothin' by it, you know, just havin' fun.

BM: Who all was playing pitch?

VV: Oh, there was Les Stubblefield (ph), Charlie Line (ph) and Bob Biggs (ph) 00:08:00and Frank Newman (ph), Ralph Newman (ph), and [indecipherable] Phillips, I think, and Art Bolin (ph)--aw, there was a whole host of us that played. But that ended up the pitch game that night.

BM: Now, Carrie said something 'bout you had some of these school get-togethers, you said a little poem. What was this little poem about?

VV: Oh, it was 'bout a little old grasshopper.

BM: Would you care to repeat it?

VV: Well, it goes like this: There was a little silly grasshopper/ He was always on the jump/ He never looked ahead/ He often got a bump/ His mother said to him 00:09:00one day/ While they were in the stubble/ You don't watch before you leap/ You'll get yourself in trouble/ The silly little grasshopper/ He despised his wise old mother/ And he said I know what to do/ And he decided not to bother/ He hurried on across the field/ And all at once he took a great big old jump and he landed in the brook/ He struggled hard to reach the bank/ But he finally decided he couldn't do it/ He give up/ And all at once an old trout came out/ And tore him all to pieces. And that's a warning, you know, for young people, to take warning from their mother.

BM: That's right.

MM: What about Albert Cree's (ph) rooster?

VV: Ohhh (laughs) I'm gonna have to tell that again?

BM: Yep! We didn't get it down a while ago.

VV: Well, we and us boys--they's a whole bunch of us, oh there must've been eight or ten of us, we was always tryin' to play some prank, you know, on someone, and well Albert Cree (ph), he had an old fine rooster. And he thought a lot of 'im, but we decided we'd steal that old rooster that night and [indecipherable] was his brother-in-law, wasn't it? He went out and borrowed his gun so that he couldn't use that on us, and on 'bout little before we's bedtime we slipped out to the henhouse and one of 'em, I forget--he grabbed that old rooster. He began to make his call and finally Albert came to the door and he had his dog about him, too. "Get him out! Get it!" and old dog just stand there 00:11:00and barkin' and barkin.' And we'd make that old rooster squall as loud as we could. Finally we decided we'd take him home and roast 'im. We started across the blind side, across an open field there and we, rather than walk through the brush we decided we'd walk around the edge of the field. We got over there a certain place and Albert, he cut across the field, you know, he didn't go like we did. But he cut across and he run right into him. And he said, "Boy, give him up," he said, "I come after him." And well, he didn't do it, he just hand the old rooster over and Albert went back to the house with the old rooster on his arm. And we didn't bother old Albert no more, that--and with that ended up the 00:12:00rooster roast that night!

BM: Who all was in on that rooster roast that night?

VV: Huh?

BM: Who all was in on that rooster roast?

VV: Oh, Hog Barnes (ph), Charlie Vine (ph), Lester Wilson (ph) and Bob Biggs (ph) I believe, and Earl Phillips (ph)--all them, there's a whole bunch of 'em. We just out having a good time, you know. And we--we didn't get to roast that old rooster. The way we'd do it, we'd roll that--roast of 'em--roll them old roosters in mud, you know, then we'd put them on the pole iron and bake 'em. And, well, then we'd eat 'em. Not salted or nothin'. We didn't like 'em very well, but we'd had a big time, you know.

BM: You said a while ago somethin' about the schoolhouse burnin', you said that 00:13:00you knew the reasons why that Ella Bruce (ph) and Willie Wilson (ph) didn't teach anymore. What was that reason?

VV: Well, Bob, the best I remember that I don't know what time of the year, but I don't know, it seems like they had their election along in March, don't the school election? Pretty much. But anyway they had the school election there and they had--one of the parties was trying to put the other one out and put some more people in, you know, on the school board. Well, all of the community come out and those that didn't, why, they'd have the hacks and they'd have buggies and somebody would go after 'em and bring 'em in and get 'em to vote. And so that night, why, after the election, why the schoolhouse burned down. And they 00:14:00wasn't no more school that year.

BM: Wasn't any more school that year?

VV: No.

MM: How many schoolhouses--

VV: Finally that fall they built a new schoolhouse down up on the hill where the last one was. I don't know if anybody remember it--do you remember that, where that was at?

BM: How many schools do you remember being in the Pinehill District?

VV: Three.

BM: Three.

VV: Three. Three different buildings.

BM: Three different buildings.

VV: Yeah.

BM: Virgil, when you and Carrie came back from Arizona where did you move to?

VV: We moved on the old Biggs' (ph), well, he owns it now. But dad had bought that place--

CV: Ella Grayson's (ph) place.

VV: Well it was up on the hill from dad's house, on the Patty Grisham (ph) 00:15:00place, square-top house. And that's where we lived for--I forget what year it was, we come back in nineteen eight--

CV: Well we lived in an old log house on your dad's place first.

VV: Well we moved from there on the [indecipherable] place. No, we moved from down in the field in the longhouse up to the square top house. Ella Grayson's (ph). Then we lived there some years 'til 1929. We moved up on John Hader's (ph) place. And we lived there two years and we moved there to Pinehill. And we lived 00:16:00there two years, we moved down on Big Deep Fork. We lived there two years and we moved from there over to Newby, a while east of Newby. That was in '35. We lived there one year and we moved back over on Kelly's (ph) place south of Bristow five miles. Then we lived there one year and made a crop. We made one bale of cotton that year and we got stalled out. That was the hardest year I ever spent in my whole life, I guess.

end side A of tape; begin side B at 00:00

VV: --and we went from there to forty-four. We been there--that was in '36. That was a dry year. Were no crops to speak of at all. We left there in August, we 00:17:00went to New Mexico and picked cotton down in the valley that fall, and we left there and went to California. And we stayed there for one year I believe, and we come back to Oklahoma. And that's the year dad had bought the old Phelps (ph)--not--I forgot where it was he bought that from.

CV: Old Jake Corns (ph) was livin' on it.

VV: Yeah, but I forget who it, who we bought it from. But we moved down in the little log house down in the field, and an old dug well in there. And we lived 00:18:00there a while, 'til nineteen-and-twenty-nine, we moved up on the Hader (ph) place, John Hader (ph) place. About two miles south of the sub (ph) station. And we lived there two years, two years--that's right. We moved from there on the Leo Pinehill place a mile south of the old Pinehill schoolhouse. We lived there two years and we went to Big Deep Fork. We lived there two years, am I right? Oh, I'm all mixed up, ain't I?

CV: [Indecipherable.]

BM: Another question, Virg. Do you remember, or do you remember hearing them 00:19:00say, when the first oil well was drilled in this community?

VV: Yeah, I think I do. Pretty sure I do. It was about a mile south of the W.O. Baker place. Glen Freeland and his brother was in the drillin' business at time. Glen is still livin'. That's where the first oil well was drilled, I think. I think he's still livin' but it ain't certain for me.

BM: Well would Glen Freeland still be around the Bristow area?

VV: Yeah. I think he is. He got some wells back over there.

BM: Would you repeat all of the Vann kids' names? Your dad, your mother--dad and mother--

VV: Yeah, they was fourteen of us children.

BM: Okay, start with your mother and dad.

VV: That's with brothers and sisters.

BM: Start with your mother and dad's names, Virg.

VV: Dad's name was Donald Christopher.

BM: Donald Christopher Vann.

VV: Yeah, and my mother's name was Eliza Elizabeth.

BM: What was her name before they were married?

VV: Mother's name was Grimes.

BM: Grimes, okay.

VV: Dad's name was Vann. (laughs)

BM: Alright, then--

VV: He married when he was seventeen years old, dad did.

BM: The children's names was what?

VV: Huh?

BM: What was all the kids' names?

VV: Well, Vernie (ph) was the oldest, then I'm next. Pearl is next, then, um---

CV: Grace?

VV: Grace, and Eamon (ph). That was the oldest ones that--then dad had a younger family after that of about four or five. Gertrude and Meehan (ph) and Louis (ph) and Cletis (ph). Four. Yeah.

MM: How old was you when Cletis (ph) was born?

VV: Huh?

BM: How old was you when Cletis (ph) was born?

VV: Cletis (ph) was born after I was married, I was married 1915. Cletis (ph) 00:22:00was born and he's the youngest, he's the baby, and he was born while we was in Arizona. And also, he was born a very--born the day that Maude (ph) died. See, Maude'd married Hog Varner (ph). And they went--when we went to Arizona, why they was five of us in the--five covered wagons. Six? Five or six. And we got out in Arizona, they lived there a while and Maudie (ph) died.

CV: Not in Arizona.

VV: And mother couldn't even go to the funeral. They brought Maude (ph) back and 00:23:00buried her, but mother couldn't go to the funeral because Cletis (ph) was born that day.

BM: Alright, you and Carrie's courtship, how did that go? When you were courtin' Carrie, when you was courtin' Carrie, how did that take place?

VV: How'd it take place?

BM: Yeah.

VV: Well I got stuck on her. (laughs) I just got kind of stuck on her and we went together, was goin' together. She wasn't but fifteen when we married and we didn't go together--how long we go together, mom?

BM: Did you ever pull any--show off to the girls at the school?

VV: Did I what?

BM: Did you ever show off to the girls at school?

VV: Well, yeah, I tried to. (laughs)

BM: What did you do showin' off?

VV: Well I'd get down there and ride horses, you know, buckin' horses. I remember one time Owen Ware had a little horse and he was a buckin' little horse, and I told him I'd ride him behind the saddle. And the more I got on that little ole' horse and he run out and throwed me up in the tree and I fell down. Fell and knocked me unconscious, and I remember Carrie comin' out--I don't remember but she said afterward, she come up there to help me, pick me up. (laughs) Yeah--

BM: So that was the start, that was really the courtship?

VV: (laughs) Yeah.

BM: When you was a lad growin' up, did you ever go watermelon stealing.

VV: Oh, yeah, that sounds very common.

BM: Who in your opinion, who raised the best watermelon?

VV: Well, I just don't remember, Bob, they was all good melons.

BM: But you don't--anyone in particular?

VV: No, no, I don't, I just don't. But I remember we would, when we'd go get a watermelon, we'd just get a watermelon, we wouldn't cut the--cut the green ones and mess the pipes all up, we was very respectable along that line. We wanted the people, you know, not to think hard of us and we's just pretty good boys.

BM: Okay---

VV: But we did play pitch once in a while.

BM: I got a report that one time that you rode your horse into the schoolhouse, is that right?

VV: In the what?

BM: Into the schoolhouse.

VV: No, no, I wouldn't do nothin' like that, I don't think I ever did. I believe I did ride him up on the porch, didn't I?

CV: I don't know.

BM: You rode him up on the porch, you never did get him on inside the schoolhouse?

VV: Naw (laughs) no, I--

BM: Do you remember any of the other boys riding them in there?

VV: No, no I don't remember anybody. They could've but I don't remember.

BM: How long have you known Louis Masterson (ph)?

VV: Well, let's see, can't remember, Bob. I didn't go to school with him, I'm 00:27:00pretty sure. But he moved, they moved in the community in later years, I think, best I remember, and he married Molton Percy's (ph) little girl, Virgie (ph).

BM: I believe that's about everything, Virg.

end of interview