John and Iva Rossander

BM: --here with John Rossander and Iva Rossander in their home, 10/22/1976 time 20 minutes 'til four.

pause in tape

BM: John, what year did your mother and dad come into this community?

JR: Nineteen-nine.

BM: What was their names?

JR: Zeke and Sarah Rossander.

MM: [Inaudible.]

BM: What was your mother's name before--

JR: Stanton.

BM: Stanton. How many children were they to that marriage?

JR: Twelve.

BM: Would you give me their names?

JR: Well (laughs), yeah, I can give--Vera (ph)--I mean, Esther (ph), then Vera (ph), John (ph), Cecil (ph), Homer (ph), Marcella (ph), Buford (ph), Rubilee 00:01:00(ph), Maudie (ph), Alice (ph), and Evelyn (ph).

(talking in background)

JR: I named Homer (ph).

IR: Hilma (ph)!

JR: Oh, Hilma (ph)!

MM: [Inaudible.]

JR: She was born after Evelyn (ph).

BM: How many of them went to the Pinehill School?

JR: Well, every one of them except--no, let's see, there's four: Rubilee (ph)--I mean Maudie (ph), Rubilee (ph), Alice (ph) and Evelyn (ph) didn't go. They died when they were young.

BM: Whenever your folks came to this part of the country, where did they migrate in here?

JR: Right from north of Drumright.

BM: What, do you know or did you hear them say what year they came to the state of Oklahoma?

JR: Yes sir--oh! State of Oklahoma, oh, they were more or less raised here. Grandpa came from Kansas and dad came down here when he was twelve years old, out on the homestead.

BM: They come down from Kansas, then, when he was twelve years old?

JR: Yeah.

BM: Who was your first teacher at Pinehill School?

JR: Well, really I can't really tell you for sure, but I think it was Edith Whiteneck. I was small for my age.

BM: What did you family do for a liv--what did you or your parents do for a living whenever they came to this part of the--

JR: (laughs) Farmed. Cotton.

BM: They had a cotton farm.

JR: Yep.

BM: What year do your--what year do you remember seeing the first oil well in this community?

JR: Let's see, [indecipherable] a well, it was--I guess it was 1912. Believe it was.

BM: Was it--what do you remember about the old Ware (ph) place over there?

JR: Owen Ware (ph)? I just, myself, the only thing I can remember, well, I can remember several things but I remember when they lived there, Iva Ware (ph) and all them was there, and Old Man--old Hennesson Ware (ph) had a hog to get out, a big old spotted sow, and he came over there to dad's and wanted dad to take and go and get her in, get her for him, because he couldn't--he couldn't get her in, couldn't find her. And somebody'd told him that we had a dog that'd trail a hog up might near, regardless how old the scent was. And we went off east of his 00:05:00house and found a track, which it looked dim to me. And I took that old--dad told him that he couldn't, but he said I could. So I took my dog and went over there and I pointed down at the track, I said, "Get it, Nigs." And he took off. And he, he bayed that hog back east of Elsa Self, way back over in them hills in there. But what year that was, I can't tell you.

MM: You don't remember drilling early oil wells on the Ware (ph) place, do you?

BM: Do you remember the early oil wells that was on the Ware (ph) place?

JR: No, I don't remember what year that--I remember 'em but I don't know what year it were.

BM: What year did you and Iva get married?

JR: In '26.

BM: Well, we better back up a little bit. You said a while ago that you remember Jake Roberts (ph).

JR: Yep.

BM: You said also that you remembered when he came into this part of the country. Where did he settle first?

JR: Over here east of Smith Bruce's on Browder (ph), Browder's (ph) place. In an old log house there. And Smith Bruce and them used to live there and in 1910 they built their log house over here. And they moved on that twenty acres. He bought twenty acres and he moved on it in 1910.

BM: And he built a log house there in '20 that he bought--

JR: Yeah. In 1910.

BM: In 1910.

JR: And Jake lived there in that house down there I guess 1910, I don't know what year it were. I can't tell you that.

BM: Then whenever they left, whenever they moved from the Browder Bruce (ph) place, they moved down over, then, and [indecipherable] the school, is that right?

JR: No.

BM: Where did they move to from there?

IR: North of the school.

BM: North of the school.

JR: No, when they left there, they moved from there over to--they went from there over to L.J. Florence's (ph) close to over here, and lived in a little old tent right over here by the big pecan tree and picked cotton for L.J. Florence (ph). Which that was their uncle. Yeah, that'd be Ella (ph) and them's uncle.

BM: When you say over here, back over here pointing back over here, what place would that be, John?

JR: Well, that'd be the Vann place, used to be the Vann place, or

BM: Step out there and get that map, Pat. We'll come back to that in a minute, so get that map and then we can pinpoint, he can pinpoint the exact place that it was.

MM: Where was the first school he went to?

BM: Where was the first school that you went to, John?

JR: Victory Chapel.

BM: You went to Victory Chapel first, then--

JR: And they wouldn't let us go up there because we was in a different district.

BM: You were in Pinehill District?

JR: Pinehill District.

BM: So they stopped you from going to Victory Chapel.

JR: Yeah.

MM: [Inaudible.]

BM: Now that first Pinehill School that you remember, where was it located at?

JR: That I went to?

BM: Yeah. First Pinehill School that you remember, where was--

JR: Oh, well I remember the one right there where [indecipherable] to Abner Bruce's. Sat there in the corner on [indecipherable], one of the Mosquito places.

BM: In other words, you remember this one here, then.

JR: Yeah.

BM: You remember the first one, then, that was built on Leo Pinehill.

JR: Yeah, yeah. Well, it wasn't Leo's, wasn't it?

BM: Yeah, it--

JR: It was his dad's, wasn't it?

BM: It's Pinehill allotment, Leo--Leo's

JR: Yeah.

BM: Leo's, Pinehill's allotment.

JR: Yeah.

MM: People argue that there wasn't one. Some says that there was just one there and some say there were two.

pause in recording

MM: Did you check and see if it's running? (pause) There weren't but one.

BM: There's been talk that there was one schoolhouse here, possibly two. Now do you know anything about that?

JR: Well now, that don't seem right to me. But there wasn't but one. And it was 00:10:00right in the corner, in the northeast corner of Mosquito Creek. That's where it sat. I can show you the rock, I think, where it sit. It wasn't in the corner on Pinehill, this was close to the road where it turns down--

BM: That runs east and westward.

JR: Yes. It was in the northeast corner of that Mosquito place.

MM: [Inaudible.]

JR: I don't know what section that's in, but--

MM: [Inaudible.]

JR: The section line goes east toward Abner Bruce's. It sat right across the road in the northeast corner, right there.

BM: Well that must've been there on--evidently, now, there had--there was two, 00:11:00there was two schools there, then.

MM: Yeah.

BM: There was two schools built there on that corner, then. The first one was built--this is that road that goes across there--

JR: This is north.

BM: Right. This is the road that runs up and down the creek here.

MM: [Inaudible.]

BM: This right here is the road going across toward Abner Bruce's. The first one was built on, over here on this Leo. And you said the other one was built in the northeast corner, so this'd have to be in here on this Murta M-U-R-T-A, Murta Mosquito, or something like that.

JR: Yeah, it was built right in the corner.

BM: Well, that would be right in this corner in here, then.

JR: Well, I don't know. I don't understand--

MM: [Inaudible.]

BM: That would be right here in that northeast corner.

JR: And you know what happened to it, don't you?

BM: Well, they tell me this one here burnt in about 1908. The one up on the hill burnt in about 1908. And--

MM: Ask him what happened to that one.

BM: What happened to this one?

JR: Well, it burnt down, them boys, big boys, would go in there and have their parties and things in there and they, they just burnt it down.

MM: See, now, he--

BM: Well how long--

MM: What year?

BM: What, about what year was that, John?

JR: Well, it was after 1909, I don't know when.

MM: About '12, I was told.

JR: I can't tell you that.

IR: [Inaudible.]

JR: Because they built the new schoolhouse over here, then.

BM: They built a new schoolhouse up on the hill.

JR: On the Grandpa Bly's (ph) place.

BM: On the Grandpa Bly (ph) place.

JR: Yeah, other word to it was, I guess it was Phoebe Bruce's. No?

MM: [Inaudible.]

JR: Grandpa Bly (ph) lived there, I don't remember what year he came there. But it was built in the southeast corner of that place.

BM: Down at Phoebe, Phoebe--

JR: Phoebe Bruce, Cairnly (ph).

BM: Yeah, it'd be Phoebe Carinly (ph).

JR: Yeah. Well, that's where it was built.

BM: Well that shows it to be right there. Then what year did that school burn, John?

JR: I don't know.

BM: But it burnt too, did it or did it not?

JR: Yeah. Yeah.

MM: Three of them.

BM: Then they built one down on the other hill.

JR: Yeah.

BM: Is that right?

JR: Yeah.

BM: What all, what all activities was the school used for?

JR: Well, when I went to school?

BM: Yeah, when you went to school there, from the time that you remember the school starting--

JR: It was just baseball and--

BM: What I'm trying to say, John, is this--was it used for other things than school activities? Now this goes back to the time that you remember the first school until it closed. What all different activities was it used for?

JR: Well, they had a literary there and they had pie suppers there and they had 00:14:00Sunday school and church and--huh?

MM: [Inaudible.]

JR: And anyway, Christmas programs, all of them, they had them there. And that's--huh?

MM: [Inaudible.]

JR: Yeah, they had fairs but I don't know what year that were. But I think it were in--see I was about 14 or 15 years old. I guess I was 14, 'cause the year before I went to Inola.

BM: Well was there any other activities that it was used for, besides what you had named?

JR: Well, not that I can think of.

BM: Did it ever, did the old--did the school ever use, was it ever used as a polling precinct?

JR: Oh yeah, lots of--lot of fights there!

BM: Who done the fighting?

JR: Who?

BM: That you remember?

JR: (laughs) Uh, Mark Saxon (ph) and oh, I can't think of that other guy's name. That was the first fight I ever seen.

BM: Sexton (ph)?

JR: Mark Saxon (ph).

BM: S-A-X-T-O-N?

JR: Yeah.

BM: Or S-A-X-O-N?

JR: I, I don't know which way it's spelled.

BM: Now, by any chance did he have two sisters?

JR: Well--

BM: That you know of.

JR: Now, Mark had, had two daughters.

BM: Okay, now then, this--this is kind of light, now. That would be Gertrude and, oh--

JR: Ella-Ella--

BM: Ellen, Ella or something. I think it's Ellen. Ellen.

JR: Yep.

BM: Gertrude and Ellen, that was their father.

JR: Yeah, yeah.

BM: Okay, where did they live, John, or do you remember?

JR: Mmm-hmm. I don't know who owned it, but I think Bill Baker owned it. Over on--well, let me see, it'd be three--one, two, three. It'd be three miles south and a mile east over here. Other words it'd be three miles straight south right down here by Smith Bruce's. It'd be three miles straight south on the hill, the rocky hill up there. You know where Arthur Barnes lived. And it's, it's just built right around--and there's a branch come in from the, the south and east, 00:17:00and then Skeeter Creek was on the west of it. And the house sat right up on that old rocky point.

BM: In other words, they lived out on the very south end of the school district?

JR: Yeah, yeah. Right on the south edge.

BM: Right on the south edge of the school district.

JR: Yeah. The section line runs through here and I think their house wasn't as far as from here to the window to the highway. To the road.

BM: To the road. But it was right on the south edge of the Pinehill district.

JR: Yeah.

BM: Alright. We get back to this, this thing I've got here, isn't right. We know it isn't, in fact it doesn't cover enough south.

MM: Well, but I was just going to say that poem from the literary--

IR: [Inaudible.]

BM: And that's one reason that I want you and Iva, when we get this other map and put these things down on it, you come up with some more information where people lived and anybody that I hadn't run across yet.

JR: Well, now, on this same place I can't think of them people that lived there. After that, a while after that, they had two girls and one boy and they was great big old husky girls and what their names was now I can't think of it. I used to tease Homer about one of them girls. In 19--I don't know what. They 00:19:00killed rabbits and it was a baaaad winter. You could just go out with a club and just knock 'em in the head. And they had a barrel full of hind legs and backs. Backs. Of rabbits. Barrel full. And they had about a half a barrel full of front legs and the ribs and stuff. Sorted them! That was their meat for that summer.

BM: But they used the rabbit as their--they used the rabbits as their meat.

JR: Yeah, I told--that year, and they had them in the barn! Had these barrels out in the barn.

BM: What year did you and Iva, what year was you and Iva married?

JR: In '26.

BM: 1926.

JR: Third day of February.

BM: Was there any children to that marriage?

JR: No. [Inaudible.] (tape garbled)

BM: --you said while ago that you [inaudible] (tape garbled) --or you know a poem that--literary--

IR: --remember it--[inaudible]. (tape garbled)

BM: Well, let's have it!

IR: (reciting) "I jumped up in the cold morning in high glee and put on a [indecipherable] coat and [indecipherable] pants--Miss Kate [inaudible] (tape interference) when I got over there, there sat Bud Fat (ph)-- I did no more expect to see him sitting there than I'd expect to see a hare hid behind Uncle 00:21:00Tom Smith's bald head. We got over there, we thought we'd go [indecipherable] hunting [inaudible] (tape interference) --one of these great big old squabby bullfrogs. He knew how to holler just as well as I did, he goes "WHOOO!" Knocked Miss Kate off in the creek half-waist deep. Old Fool Bud Fat (ph) ran down the creek to get a pole to help Miss Kate out and I jumped in there and I had her out in a little while! I ask her if she loved me to squeeze my hand, and she squeezed and she squeezed and she squeezed it off! My, how that felt. The next time Old Fool Bud Fat comes over to my house, I'm going to souse his head in the 00:22:00slop bucket."

BM: (laughs)

MM: You want to ask him about the [indecipherable]?

BM: You, John, what all work have you done since you and Iva were, had been married?

JR: Well, I mostly farmed, but we went to New Mexico in '36. I worked for a rancher out there and I worked seven days a week from sun 'til sun for two dollars a day. And I kept wantin' them to give me a day off, 'cause it was just driving me crazy. And they wouldn't let me off. So I quit 'em. I'd been telling 'em I'd quit 'em. So I went to Culverson (ph) Saw Mill. And I begin to work at the mill. And I worked at the mill there for, oh, three to four days, a week, 00:23:00and they was supposed to get me some help and they wouldn't do it--they didn't do it. So I quit them and I worked for the--what's his name? Hunt, Edward Hunt Sheep Company. And I picked up the drop herds.

BM: When you say drop herds, what do you mean by the drop herds?

JR: Well, the old ewes that had young and they wouldn't claim 'em lot of times. And I had a thing concern with jointed pole and I'd hook them old ewes, I could see that they'd had young, and I'd hook them with that pole, catch 'em around the leg, and I'd hold 'em and I'd sideline 'em. And then I'd push a little lamb up there and they'd nurse, and I'd turn her loose. I mean, let her go. I've leave her sidelined.

BM: What does sideline mean?

JR: Well, I just put, tie her one front foot and one back foot together. That is, you know, where they can walk but still they couldn't kick 'em or anything. And if you let 'em nurse one time, well then they'd take 'em and go on.

BM: They'd take the, the little ones then and go on and raise the little ones?

JR: Yeah, yeah. And I had to go to the sheep camp every day. I didn't have to work only about--well, I'd start out early of a morning and then I'd have to go to the sheep camp and get there about 11:30. And I had to report in and every day I was there. There was hard tack biscuits and mutton and brown beans. That was the regular meal.

MM: [Inaudible.]

BM: Well how long were you in New Mexico? Why were you in New Mexico?

JR: Well, I went out there more or less so maybe it'd help Iva, and she--other words, she had poor health and I thought maybe it'd help her, and she was homesick for her folks.

BM: You mean Iva was still momma's baby.

JR: No, she was--she's pretty good, but still she's homesick.

BM: She wanted to go see momma.

MM: [Inaudible.]

BM: What about the Jake Roberts place, you said something about the Jake Roberts place, the Jake Roberts lease or place? Earlier?

JR: Well, Jake Roberts, they, they used to when we first came here, they had all the good horses. Good horses. They was workin' negroes. Colored folks. Really 00:26:00working. And there was Jake, he was old as I am, and then there was Johnny Roberts (ph) and Walk Roberts (ph), and--Walk lives over here this side of the 66 yet. Arthur, that's Arthur. Walk is dead, that's right. And them and then there, the old Rubin Moore's (ph), back there across the road over there. We went right through their yard all the time.

BM: The Robertses, then, the dealings that you had with Jake Roberts was buyin' horses off of him, is that right?

JR: Oh, we didn't buy any off of him, but they just had them--

BM: You weren't trading with him, or--

JR: Huh-uh, no, we just knew him well, they was good clean colored folks.

BM: Well you knew that, did you, or did you know that they, Jake Roberts was a freedman, out of slavery? Did you know that?

JR: Well, yeah, yeah.

BM: I've been trying to pinpoint down why that those colored people had been allotted land in the Indian territory. Some said they were Indian slaves. Others said no, they were white slaves.

JR: I don't know what, now, whether--

IR: There was--

JR: --Indians or whites, I can't tell you that.

IR: They were the Indian's slaves.

BM: Well that was report--

IR: They moved back here from the east, they had these slaves.

BM: They were Indian slaves.

JR: But I can't tell you--

BM: Well, that there--that is what I wanted to make sure of.

IR: [Inaudible.]

BM: Speak up a little bit louder.

IR: Oh, I'm just [inaudible].

BM: Okay.

JR: But, I can't, I can't tell you that, but I do--

end of interview