Lafayette Johnson

WN: Wednesday, November 28, 1990. I'm in the Red Bird Shoe Store and I'm talking with Lafayette Johnson. Okay, Lafayette, will you tell us when you were born and where?

LJ: March 17, 1936 in Creek County, Bristow, Oklahoma.

WN: Okay, can you tell me anything at all about your mother?

LJ: My mother was raised in Creek County.

WN: And what is her name?

LJ: Annie Belle Whittenburg.

WN: Can you tell me anything about your grandparents?

LJ: My grandmother--they was farmers.

WN: Where did they farm, Lafayette?

LJ: We farmed here in Bristow.

WN: North? East? South?

LJ: East of Bristow.

WN: East of Bristow. And how many children were there in your family?

LJ: There was six.

WN: And where were you in the family? Were you the oldest?

LJ: Next to the oldest.

WN: Next to the oldest. Can you tell me anything that your mother and father did while you were out in the country that was of particular interest? What did they farm?

LJ: They farmed mostly cotton.

WN: Did you own your own land?

LJ: No, we was farm sharecropping.

WN: You were sharecropping. Do you remember anything that your mother told you particular about when she was a little girl? Or your grandmother? Can you remember anything?

LJ: Well, one thing they told me would be honesty. Tell people the truth.

WN: Okay, how did they travel? How did your mother travel? Did you all have a car?

LJ: No we traveled wagon.

WN: Wagon.

LJ: And walk.

WN: And did you have any horses?

LJ: Yeah!

WN: What else did you grow besides cotton?

LJ: They growed high-gear (a type of sorghum), corn, vegetable crops, you know, and gardens.

WN: Can you tell me whether your grandparents or anybody in your family was 00:02:00involved in any war or can you remember any stories of the Civil War or World War I, or--

LJ: No, I had an uncle that was in World War II.

WN: In World War II. When your mother had her children, do you remember, did she have a midwife, or?

LJ: I had a midwife that birthed me.

WN: You had a midwife that birthed you.

LJ: Yeah.

WN: Did you ever help with any of the births of any of the children?

LJ: Nah.

WN: Did your mother ever go to the hospital for any of them?

LJ: I don't remember.

WN: You don't remember. Do you remember anything that she--did she ever tell you anything about the early slave days, Lafayette?

LJ: No, my grand--my mother wasn't in the slaves, the slavin'.

WN: She was not in the--

LJ: No. I think some of my great-grandparents were, but--

WN: You don't remember where they were?

LJ: No. I think they was raised around Paris, Texas.

WN: Okay. Do you remember where you went to school, Lafayette?

LJ: Lincoln High.

WN: At Lincoln High. Can you tell me what it was like at Lincoln High? How many years did you go?

LJ: Twelve years.

WN: You went twelve years. Can you tell me what it was like?

LJ: It was a great school.WN: It was a great school. Can you remember a special teacher you had?

LJ: Well, Mr. Franklin (WH "William" Franklin).

WN: Mr. Franklin. Can you tell us any kind of memories about him?

LJ: Well, he was a history teacher.

WN: He was your history teacher.

LJ: And he was the basketball coach at Lincoln High for a long time.

WN: What kind of discipline did you have at the school?

LJ: Very strict.

WN: Did you ever get a spanking?

LJ: Yeah. Two. I can tell you who I got 'em from, too!

WN: Who?

LJ: It was W.M. Bitsy (ph).

WN: Oooh! And what did you do, Lafayette, to have to get a spanking?

LJ: Well, I just mis--misobeyed her orders and she--

WN: (laughs) What did you use in school? Did you have your--did you have to buy 00:04:00your own books, or?

LJ: Well we bought, I think we bought, we had to buy our own workbooks.

WN: And your own pencils and papers and things like that.

LJ: Yeah.

WN: Can you tell me what subjects you studied in school at any time that were important to you, Lafayette?

LJ: History.

WN: History. That was your favorite one. When you finished high school, Lafayette, what did you do?

LJ: Well, I went to work at the shop here and then I went to go--I mean I went to Okmulgee Tech and took shoe repair.

WN: Did you ever make enough money, Lafayette, to buy a car?

LJ: No. I mean, I never did care for a car!

(both laugh)

WN: Okay, did your mother and daddy ever have a wagon--a new wagon or can you remember anything special that they had?

LJ: Well we always had a nice wagon because that's how we had to travel! (laughs)

WN: Do you remember picking cotton ever?

LJ: Yes, ma'am!

WN: You remember how much you were paid?

LJ: Well just by what you could eat, and in clothing, I mean--(laughs)

WN: Alright, do you happen to remember how many cows that you owned, Lafayette?

LJ: Well, we probably had--we had probably, had two or three cows. Most every people, most all farmers had they own milk cows because that's where they got the milk.

WN: Do you remember working for anybody else in the fields?

LJ: Yeah, I worked for--you remember the Grimeses (ph) in here, don't you? I worked with them.

WN: Yes, I do.

LJ: You know, they was about eighteen or twenty of those in the family.

WN: Yeah. Did your brothers and sisters work on the farm, too?

LJ: Yeah. Most all of us worked on the farm.

WN: And you're all--don't tell me that Frankie ever--

LJ: No, no, he, no, he's the youngest one, he never did get any of that. He got in the wood cutting and everything, like that.

WN: Can you remember the most cotton you ever chopped or pulled or anything like that?

LJ: Well, I never was a very good cotton picker, I never could pick enough to go to sleep on. (laughs)

WN: What kind of a house did you live in when you were little?

LJ: Oh, they was probably about a three-four room house. They was just farmhouses, just farmhouses.

WN: Okay, you didn't have any--no log cabins or anything.

LJ: Naw. It wasn't any electricity then, when I was--

WN: You didn't have electricity? You had the outhouses?

LJ: Yeah, outhouses, kerosene lights.

WN: And did you have to chop wood?

LJ: Yeah. Started with a crosscut saw, not with a chainsaw. (laughs)

WN: Did your mother ever make any soap? Do you remember your mother making soap?

LJ: No. I think my grandmothers made lye soap.

WN: My grandmother did, too. Did you ever help with the laundry?

LJ: Sure, I learned everything. How to wash my clothes, and--

WN: Are you--did you have a washing machine?

LJ: We had a washing board, mostly.

WN: Yeah, that's right. And you helped your mother?

LJ: Yeah. I used to help clean house, wash dishes, cook, I mean--do anything.

WN: Did you remember anything about butchering back in those days?

LJ: Yeah.

WN: Well tell me a little bit about how you butchered.

LJ: Well, you used to take a hog, you know, and they used to--and you'd boil a swill (ph) and get it real hot then you'd put lye in there and then you'd put the hog down in there with the lye, you know.

WN: And you stuck the hog?

LJ: Yeah. In the hot water, you know, and got all the hair off.

WN: I know, but you had to kill it, first.

LJ: Yeah, you had to kill it and cut its throat.

WN: Oh, did you ever do that?

LJ: I helped folks do it, I helped my folks do it.

WN: You didn't cry, or?

LJ: Naw, you get used to it.

WN: (laughs) And then after you got it in the lye water, what did you do, Lafayette?

LJ: Then after you pull out, then you scraped all its hair off and then you hang him up and let him, you know, cool out, you know.

WN: How long did that take?

LJ: Probably two or three days. 'Cause it'd be so cold, you know, they would freeze. And then all that blood, you know, drip out.

WN: Do you remember your mother rendering lard?

LJ: Yeah.

WN: How did she do that? Out in the open or in the house?

LJ: Yeah, used to do it in the house, you know, used to take that fat and you 00:08:00just cook it all, and the grease, and let it set, and when it sets, you know, it forms, you know, and it cools down.

WN: And then she stored it in cans?

LJ: Yeah.

WN: Oooh. Alright. Do you remember anything that was special that your mother used to cook for you that you really liked?

LJ: Blackberry cobbler. (laughs)

WN: Who picked the blackberries?

LJ: Oh, I'd pick the blackberries.

WN: Where did you find them? Out on your fields, or--

LJ: Yeah. Out in--you'd find 'em out in the farms around.

WN: Alright, what you remember best about Bristow when you were a little boy?

LJ: Well, the most important time I used to come to down, you know, is when you picked cotton all week and then you'd come to down and you'd ride, you'd see 'em gin the cotton. And then you'd eat a hamburger and get a Coke and that was special because most then you didn't--you wasn't used to that.

WN: Well, I expect that's true. Well, tell me what about your social life?

LJ: Well, we rode horses, swim.

WN: Where did you swim?

LJ: We just swim the creeks.

WN: Oh, in the creeks? Which creek? Sand Creek, or--

LJ: Well we live out east of town there, it was called, it was part of Little Deep Fork. Little Deep Fork, you know, runs through lots of places.

WN: Well were you ever worried about the quicksand?

LJ: Naw, you didn't worry about anything. (laughs)

WN: How about sand burrs?

LJ: Oh, yeah, you'd get a bunch of those, uh-huh.

WN: Alright, how often did you get to buy new shoes, Lafayette?

LJ: Well, most of the time you bought shoes in the fall of the year, you know, when you get the crop, you know, you get two pair of shoes--a work pair and a dress pair.

WN: And where did you go to church, Lafayette?

LJ: I went to the Baptist Church. It was out in the country. It was called Jacksonville. You remember Mr. Jackson used to live down here out east of town?

WN: Yes.

LJ: It was a Baptist church and that's why they named it Jacksonville Church, Jacks--

WN: Do you remember who the minister was?

LJ: Reverend Taughtry (ph).

WN: Reverend Taughtry (ph). Oh, I remember the Taughtrys (ph) real well.

LJ: And there was another one that was Reverend Morrisey (ph) used to preach after--used to ride a bicycle from town.

WN: Oh, my.

LJ: If we took up three dollars, that was great, you know, that was a big offering. (laughs)

WN: Well, things have changed, haven't they? Well how about your social life out there, Lafayette? Did you all--did you have most of your social life with the church, or--

LJ: Yeah, it was mostly church activities. And you played a little baseball and a few games and other things like that.

WN: Were you ever in jail, Lafayette?

LJ: Oh, yeah, once or twice.

WN: What for?

LJ: Oh, everybody gets out and take a drink or two, you know. (laughs) I mean, that's part of growing up!

(both laugh)

WN: What did you think about the Jim Crow laws when we had segregation, Lafayette?

LJ: I never had very little problem, you know, and they had them here in Bristow, your restrooms, but--and I think everybody makes his own segregation, 00:11:00in my though--my thinking.

WN: Well, that's a nice way to think, isn't it. But we have had--we haven't had many racial problems here in Bristow--

LJ: No, I started work at Bristow and Raymond (Raymond Cecil) for -- when I was fifteen years old in the shoe shop. And I had very little trouble out of anybody in Bristow.

WN: Yeah, you had lots of friends, didn't you, Lafayette, yeah.

LJ: Yes!

WN: Okay, can you think of anything that was especially hard for you, Lafayette, because you were black?

LJ: Well, no I really, I don't think--I think, I think it might've been--because the last year I finished school I took mechanical drawing, and that was 1958 and Lincoln was segrega--I mean, was integrated.

WN: Integrated, yes.

LJ: Well, I think sometimes, you know, it's--I would say, you know, it's--it wasn't too embarrassing because I never did want to force myself on anybody.

WN: I know, but have you found it difficult in any situation with the--between the whites and the blacks? Did you feel resentful when you couldn't go swimming in the swimming pool and these kinds of things?

LJ: No, I--that--I never was around the pool.

WN: And so it just didn't simply, didn't bother you. Did you do any kind of--well, let me go back up. Did you ever feel that your parents or your grandparents suffered because they were black?

LJ: Well, I--I think back then, people, you know, they--if they had, you know, if they was qualified they wasn't hired after jobs, you know. And you know, some of them didn't have an opportunity to get an education, but I had to get it.

WN: Yeah. And that was the greatest difficulty, getting--

LJ: Yeah.

WN: --getting an education. Did you ever, were you ever in the military, Lafayette?

LJ: No, ma'am.

WN: Okay, well let's see what else we need to (sound of pages flipping) find out about here. Let's see. What dress fashion did you think was the -- maybe the best for you?

LJ: Well I always wore boots and Levis, overalls, you know, that what I was raised--you know, I was raised in that.

WN: And that's your favorite?

LJ: Yeah.

WN: That's your favorite thing. Do you remember any dust storms at all, Lafayette?

LJ: No, I never was in any dust storms. I was, that was way back. That was back in, I think, in--

WN: In the '30s.

LJ: In the '30s, I wasn't born 'til '36, so--

WN: Wow, so you missed all that. Well I remember that. Do you remember any kind of disaster that happened to you or your family?

LJ: Yeah. Well I remember one year that we was--I think we was gathering the crop, we was on the--closing it out and we come back and our house was 00:14:00completely burnt down, and we'd just bought all the clothes, all the Christmas presents, and everything. We come back to all ashes.

WN: And what happened after that?

LJ: Well, I was in a tornader. You know when the tornadoes through here?

WN: Yes, I remember that.

LJ: That was a night disaster.

WN: That was in the '60s, wasn't it?

LJ: Yeah, it was in the 60s.

WN: Well did people befriend you and come and--

LJ: Yeah! Everybody helped us. And they--it was no problems.

WN: And it all worked out then, didn't it?

LJ: Yeah. The Red Cross helped to get us a house and everything we [indecipherable].

WN: Well that's wonderful. Well, is there anything you'd like to say on the tape, Lafayette? This is gonna be for posterity, now, I'm gonna put this tape in the library and it's gonna have Lafayette Johnson's name on it. Can you think of anything you'd like to say?

LJ: Well, the most recent I had an open-heart surgery, you know, back in 1988, '89, and which the people of Bristow was real grateful and I really enjoyed it.

WN: Well, you enjoyed that surgery?!

LJ: I enjoyed the visits after it, you know, and the kindness.

WN: Oh, that's wonderful.

LJ: And I think it gives you a new lease on life, you know. Because when you've got friends--

WN: You've been a good friend to everybody!

LJ: That's right!

WN: I'll never forget, Lafayette, when you tried to sell me that cream to make me beautiful--

(both laugh)

WN: You've did a lot--done a little bit of everything, haven't you?

LJ: I was up there at baseball, I've made it all!

WN: Yes, you've helped a lot with the young people, haven't you?

LJ: Yes.

WN: And what suggestion would you make for the black people in our community today?

LJ: Is to work real hard and get an education and be qualified.

WN: That's the most important thing, isn't it?

LJ: Yes.

WN: Alright, this is Wanda Newton and Lafayette Johnson, signing off, on November 28, 1990.