Winey Harjo - Part 1

Part One

WN: This is Wanda Newton, and I'm out at Mrs. Harjo's house. She has consented to talk to me.

WH: [Indecipherable] in the walls.

WN: Yes, they were in the wall of this old house. Now you tell me how old you are, Mrs. Harjo. Tell me your name, your full name, your Indian name, your maiden name before you got married.

WH: And my married name.

WN: Yeah.

WH: Winey Harjo.

WN: Winey Harjo. What was your name before you married Harjo?

WH: I was a Hawkin.

WN: A Hawkin?

WH: That's my maiden name.

WN: Okay. Tell me a little bit about your mother and father.

WH: Well, now, I don't know my father because he died when I was three-years-old.

WN: And you were three?

WH: Uh huh. I don't remember him, but my mother, her name was Sarah Taylor.

WN: And were they both Indian?

WH: Yeah.

WN: Do you know what tribe?

WH: Creek.

WN: Creek tribe. And where did they come from? Do you know?

WH: Oh, just right around Slick and Okmulgee.

WN: And, and what did your father do?

WH: What'd he do?

WN: Uh huh.

WH: I don't remember cause I wasn't old enough.

WN: You weren't old enough to remember at all. And your mother didn't tell you what he did or anything?

WH: No, no.

WN: How many brothers and sisters did you have?

WH: I had, I had uh two full sisters as Hawkin.

WN: Two full sisters of Hawkin.

WH: Uh huh. And then I had a half-sister was a Tiger.

WN: Oh, are you kin to Ms. Johnson (ph)?

WH: No, Martha Bigpond.

WN: Oh, Martha Bigpond.

WH: Yeah. That was my half-sister.

WN: Oh.

WH: She was a Tiger.

WN: She was a Tiger.

WH: Yeah, and then I had a brother was George Tiger and they were brothers, but 00:02:00they were half brothers to me, both of them.

WN: Oh. Now I read, do you know a Thomas Tiger? Did you know a--

WH: Creek.

WN: He was a Creek? Thomas Tiger? Was he kin to you?

WH: Yeah.

WN: Well, I read about him.

WH: You did?

WN: Yeah, in an early newspaper. I'm going to turn this radio off.

WH: Yeah, turn it down.

WN: Alright. Let me turn it down. Just a minute.

WH: Turn it to the west. I mean--

[Inaudible]

WN: Here it says, this was a newspaper. Let me see where is it. I found about Thomas Tiger. Okay. This was in 1901. This was in the newspaper, The Bristow Indian Territorial Enterprise.

WH: Oh yeah. I remember.

WN: Okay, it says--

WH: Bristow. They didn't leave Oklahoma.

WN: No, it wasn't Oklahoma then. But Mr. Purdy, I don't know if you remember a Mr. Purdy or not?

WH: Purdy?

WN: Purdy, uh huh.

WH: I sure do.

WN: Well, he wrote this. He wrote all of this stuff from a book, and he said, I mean he just wrote it down. This is March the 29th. "The Snake Indians which camp is near Okmulgee, and they want the whites to leave from this part of the Indian Territory. So, today, they sent in a horseman by the name of Thomas Tiger."

WH: I know him.

WN: "And he delivered a notice to A.H. Purdy, M.C. Flourney, Van D. Stout, P.D. Stout, E.W. Simms, and Joseph Eads and gave them four days to leave along with all that are living in Bristow." They wanted everybody out of Bristow.

WH: Yeah.

WN: Ah, so, and I can see why they wanted everybody out of Bristow. But, now, was Thomas kin to you?

WH: Well, Thomas was a half-brother to Martha Bigpond. That's my half-sister.

WN: Oh.

WH: He was a half-brother to her.

WN: And where did you live, Mrs. Harjo, when you were in this area?

WH: Right around Bristow, Slick.

WN: In that area, there?

WH: Yeah. And then I just landed right here in Bristow.

WN: Well, did you live in a log cabin or a sod house?

WH: Yeah.

WN: You lived in a log cabin?

WH: Yeah. And we got burned out.

WN: Oh you did? Well, did your stove catch on fire or what happened?

WH: Yeah. We lived in a log house and they made the chimney with logs, you see, and there was fire in there and cook. And it caught a fire.

WN: How old were you? About how old were you?

WH: I was about uh, well, I was married in 1911, and that's when it burned down. I had one boy, baby boy then.

WN: You had one baby boy.

WH: And that's Wesley.

WN: Oh, that's Wesley, is that Wesley? Oh, and how many children did you have?

WH: I had six boys and three girls. Oh yeah.

WN: Six boys and three girls. Can you name them? Will you name them for me?

WH: Yeah. First one is Wesley out there, Wesley Harjo. Wilson Harjo, you know him.

WN: Yes, I remember Wilson well.

WH: Well, then the next one was Taylor Harjo.

WN: I remember Taylor.

WH: And then the fourth one was, oh, Paul Harjo.

WN: I remember Paul.

WH: And then the last one was Barney Harjo.

WN: Barney. I remember Barney. All of your boys were so handsome, I thought.

WH: Yeah.

WN: Now name your girls for me.

WH: One was named Lucy Hawkin. And one was named Fanny Hawkin, but she married a Tiger. But Lucy Hawkin didn't marry. She died before. She was just 18-years-old.

(It is believed Mrs. Harjo is speaking of her sisters, here, and not her daughters.)

WN: Oh, what happened to her?

WH: I think she got burned some way.

WN: Oh, that's too bad.

WH: I was just about six-years-old then.

WN: My word.

WH: Yeah. And I had a half-brother named Willie Vance (ph) and he died, too. He died after my mother passed away, he passed away.

WN: How old was your mother when she died?

WH: She was about 90-years-old.

WN: And what was her name?

WH: Sarah Taylor (ph). That was her maiden name.

WN: That was her maiden name.

WH: But she went by Tiger.

WN: She went by Tiger. Let me ask you, do you remember your grandmother at all or your grandparents at all?

WH: No. See they all died in the old times by small pox.

WN: Oh, well now in here there's a, in Mr. Purdy's diary here, he has a thing about a small pox camp being here in Bristow down my 2nd Street. Do you remember that when you were a little girl?

WH: No. This here was out way out between here and Okemah.

WN: Oh, and that's where you got--

WH: And my brother was in that small pox then. He was 10-years-old.

WN: Oh my.

WH: But he finally made it over.

WN: And he got alright. Did he have a bunch of scars or anything?

WH: No.

WN: My, he was lucky, wasn't he?

WH: And I got the pot that they made tea for them that had the small pox.

WN: You still have that pot? How wonderful.

WH: [Indecipherable] wash pot.

WN: How wonderful. Oh, that's so nice and what a nice heirloom for your family. That's great. Well now, can you remember anything about when you were a little girl? Where did you got to school? Did you go to school?

WH: I went to--I didn't go to school very much. First school I went to, I went to Mills Chapel. You remember that?

WN: Yes, I remember that.

WH: But I didn't go there very much because, see, after my step daddy died, we had to work in the fields.

WN: Oh, of course.

WH: And we had to work and make corn and peas and potatoes and make a living.

WN: And your brothers and sisters worked in the fields, too?

WH: Yeah.

WN: Oh that's--

WH: My sister just passed away here about, I guess it was about seven years ago. 00:09:00She was older than I was.

WN: Oh, my stars. That's fantastic.

WH: Her name was Fanny Tiger

WN: Fanny Tiger. I remember that name, Fanny Tiger.

WH: Yeah.

WN: Well, do you--I remember Grandmother Conneisenney, that used to stand on--Grandmother Conneisenney? Do you remember Ms. Conneisenney?

WH: Senney?

WN: Conneisenney? Was she Martha--I remember her standing on the street, and she had a little long dress on, and she wore a little kerchief around her head, and I thought she was the cutest little woman I ever saw.

WH: Her name was what?

WN: Conneisenney.

WH: Senney Tiger (ph).

WN: Yeah, yeah.

WH: Senney Tiger (ph).

WN: Senney Tiger (ph). That was it.

WH: I remember her. That was--Tom Tiger married her then. [Indecipherable]

WN: Oh really?

WH: Yeah, but she passed away.

WN: Yes. Yes.

WH: And so uh he didn't get married no more 'till, well he did, but he went down toward, uh, way down toward uh, what's it called? Charlie Hill. (ph)

WN: Oh, I didn't even know that was there. Now another thing I read about in Mr. Purdy's diary was a stage coach trail. Do you remember the stage coach coming to Bristow?

WH: No. I don't remember that cause we didn't have no way of comin' to Bristow, only in a wagon.

WN: In a wagon, you came.

WH: We only come when we had to come after maybe a little groceries or something.

WN: Money was hard to come by then, wasn't it?

WH: We had to make our own living.

WN: Well let me ask you, did you do your own sewing? Did you make your own clothes and everything?

WH: Oh yeah. We had to sew with our fingers, hand.

WN: My word, hand sewing.

WH: Yeah, because we didn't know nothing about no machine.

WN: Did your mother quilt? Do you all make quilts and everything like that?

WH: Yeah.

WN: Do you remember some favorite Indian recipes, Mrs. Harjo? Can you--

WH: Indian what?

WN: Recipes that your mother made?

WH: Huh uh. She didn't make none of them [indecipherable] if it did, it burned up.

WN: Oh, I see. Well now, let me ask you, tell me what you all cooked back then. How did you cook and what did you cook?

WH: When we was young?

WN: Uh huh.

WH: [Indecipherable] well we had one of them, and we had to, we had to corn, pound in that

WN: You pounded your corn in that?

WH: And made bread cause see they didn't sell no flour then way back in 1901.

WN: And you pounded your own corn?

WH: We had to pound that corn and make our own bread.

WN: Well, what about your meat, did you--were there deer or did you raise cattle?

WH: No. We'd just eat--we'd just go out and catch rabbits and squirrels.

WN: And gathered opossum grapes, you gathered grapes and wild onions?

WH: Yeah. Wild onions. That's all we lived on. We didn't raise no hog cause I don't remember anybody having any hogs. Course they do the free range.

WN: Yes. Oh, it was. No fences?

WH: No.

WN: Well, now as that your allotment you were living on?

WH: No. That was my step-father's allotment.

WN: I see. And did you all sign up with the Dawes Commission and get your Indian rights?

WH: Yes. In 1907. That's when all Creek Indians had to sign and get an allotment.

WN: Oh, that was too bad, wasn't it?

WH: That's when Bristow come to [indecipherable] but it come to Bristow, Oklahoma.

WN: Well, you remember--

WH: I remember when Bristow didn't have any streets.

WN: You can?

WH: Just mud. If you go there you had to walk in the mud and go in the stores. There was one street they come, one store come in there was S.T. Wolfe. You remember him?

WN: S.T. Wolfe, yes I remember the Wolfe name.

WH: He had a big store right there across where the bank is now.

WN: Oh, on Sixth Street, you mean?

WH: Yeah. And then Stone Hardware.

WN: Yes.

WH: That Stone Hardware still there.

WN: Yes, it is.

WH: Well, that was, well it was a hardware store.

WN: And he used to sell caskets and everything, didn't he?

WH: Yeah.

WN: I read about it. I don't remember that, but I read about it.

WH: Well, they had one jewelry store, and I can't remember that name. And then they had one little store back along there where Ms. Stanford (ph) is--

WN: Oh really?

WH: Had a sell, like, glasses and plates.

WN: Kind of like a dime store? Do you remember when some of the early merchants came in? They always say Joe Abraham came in with a little cart and sell things off of the cart.

WH: Yeah.

WN: Let's back up to when you were--

WH: The Slymans?

WN: Yes, the Slymans. Well, you remember a lot of those.

WH: Oh, and John Bishop is over the [indecipherable]. He ought to know who it was.

WN: Well, yes, John should, but I can't get him to tell me too much.

WH: He's 90. I'm 95. And he's two years older than [indecipherable].

WN: He is? Well you know he doesn't go down to the cotton gin anymore.

WH: He don't go to the office no more?

WN: No, because he's gotten so, he falls over. And so they have a--he stays home and they have a lady that stays with him all the time now. But, yes, he's interesting.

WH: And I know Purdy.

WN: You knew Mr. Purdy?

WH: Yeah, and his son. I don't remember his last name. I don't remember what was his name but he had went to California. I don't know whether he's still living or not.

WN: Well, I don't know either. Well, now tell me about your husband just a little bit. Where did you meet him? How did you meet him?

WH: Oh, I meet him in church.

WN: Which church did you go to?

WH: That Indian church right there now.

WN: Oh, right down here, Mutteloke?

WH: That church was built there in 1901.

WN: It was?

WH: That's where he come in there and, of course, he was young, but I was young, too.

WN: And he was handsome, wasn't he?

WH: Yeah, and he attended that church, and I already belonged to that church. And so that's where I met him. And I just married him in 1911.

WN: And you married him in that church there?

WH: No, I married him up in Tulsy (Tulsa).

WN: Oh, I see. Well, now let me ask you, when you were a young girl, were they still doing green corn dances and--

WH: Yeah.

WN: And Indian dances. I remember I went to some up by Kellyville, and they had turtle shells, and I bet you were one of the dancers.

WH: I danced with shell.

WN: You danced with shell?

WH: And I played the Indian ball game, a stick ball game.

WN: Oh, you did stuff like that? I didn't know girls played that.

WH: Yeah.

WN: Oh, I think that's wonderful. I bet you were good, weren't you?

WH: Well, yeah, we was. The way they had the men put up that Indian ball game, they put up a big pole and put a cow head on that.

WN: A cow head?

WH: Yeah, and if you hit that cow head in the center, you made a score.

WN: Oh my word. With that little ball?

WH: Little round ball.

WN: Well, did you ever score?

WH: No. We didn't know nothing about that when we were young cause we'd get out and hunt and kill rabbits and squirrels.

WN: Did you kill rabbits and squirrels, too?

WH: Sure.

WN: With a gun?

WH: No, with a bow and arrow. We didn't kill no squirrels with no gun. Didn't 00:18:00shoot no rabbits with no gun either. We'd get on horses and we had a bunch of dogs and when the dogs get after 'em while we'd follow them and, you know, they'd round him up [indecipherable] we'd catch 'em and we'd kill five or six rabbits. And we'd dress 'em, and we had a smoke house built just for the purpose of that and we'd put 'em all in there and smoke it.

WN: And dry them and have them for the winter. How wonderful. Was hard work, too, wasn't it?

WH: Hard work, yeah. Plow corn, grate corn, drive the wagon, ride horse, swim.

WN: Well, who taught you to swim?

WH: Nobody. Nobody was there. Just go and get in the water and run it yourself.

WN: Oh, that's wonderful. I want you to tell me, how the Sand Creek out here, it 00:19:00hasn't always been like that, full of sand, has it? Sand Creek, didn't it used to be pretty and clear? My grandmother--

WH: Yeah. And you could fish in that, too. There was fish in there.

WN: Oh really? How deep was it about?

WH: Oh, I guess maybe some places was like 20 foot, along like that.

WN: You gotta be kidding.

WH: Yeah. But now it ain't nothing.

WN: No, it is nothing. Well, there used to be deer in here, too, wasn't there?

WH: Yeah. Why I'd have three or four deers come here right this year, this fall.

WN: Oh, you did? Right in this area?

WH: Yeah. I don't know where they come from.

WN: But they're here.

WH: Somewhere.

WN: Well, I'm glad they are coming back. I wished we could dig the and out of Sand Creek. Now let's back up to when you were a little girl. Did you have a 00:20:00favorite toy, Mrs. Harjo?

WH: No. We had dolls, but we had to make our own dolls.

WN: Oh, you made your own--what'd you make them out of, rags?

WH: We made them with a cobb.

WN: Oh, out of a corn cobb? Well, did you do Indian bead work, too, or just ribbons or what did you do?

WH: No. Didn't do that cause we didn't have no money to buy nothing like that.

WN: But you wore long dresses?

WH: Yeah.

WN: And what were your favorite Sunday shoes and your favorite Sunday dress? Can you remember--

WH: We didn't go to church at that time. There was no church then.

WN: Oh, there was no church then?

WH: The churches begin right along in 1902. That's when the Indian church begin and different churches. [Indecipherable] there's a lot of Indian churches now.

WN: Oh, I know. Well let me ask you, could all of the children read some? Could 00:21:00you read or did you all just speak the Indian language.

WH: Well, I spoke Indian language when I was young.

WN: Uh huh.

WH: And then, cause my daddy didn't, I mean my step-daddy didn't speak no Indian language. Well, we had to turn around and speak English. And then when he passed away--

WN: What nationality was he? Do you remember?

WH: Uh, he was, what you call, oh a Freedman.

WN: Oh, he was a Freedman? Oh, I see.

WH: Part Indian and part colored.

WN: I see.

WH: Because you couldn't tell him from a colored.

WN: Well, I'll be darned. A Freedman.

WH: Yeah, and after he died, well, I took them polio when I was four-years-old.

WN: You did?

WH: I had the polio. You know like they have--

WN: Yeah like you were cripple?

WH: No, I didn't get cripple.

WN: Well, how wonderful.

WH: And so, we was in, you know what a [indecipherable].

WN: Yeah.

WH: Well, we was living right there on that section [indecipherable] goes on down there by William Daniel (ph) old house.

WN: And you got polio then?

WH: Yeah.

WN: Did anybody else in your family get it?

WH: Nuh-uh.

WN: You were the only one.

WH: And then when mom married this Tiger man, that's my half-sister, that was her daddy. Daniel Tiger.

WN: Daniel Tiger.

WH: He was a medicine man. And so my mother married him, well then I still had that polio then. I was crippled. I wasn't crippled, but I just couldn't get up. They just had to pat me and sit me down and lay me down. And so when she married him, we moved over there in his home, and he lived in a big house. He was a carpenter.

WN: Well, he must have been.

WH: Yeah, and so we moved over there and he doctored me, and I got over that polio and it didn't leave me crippled or nothing.

WN: Well, he must have been a wonderful medicine man.

WH: There used to be a lot of them but they ain't a lot now.

WN: Well, they were a lot cheaper, weren't they?

WH: Oh yeah. You didn't have to pay for the medicine like we do these doctors here. Give them a chicken or if you got uh anything you don't want, just give it to him.

WN: And that was his pay?

WH: Yeah. I don't know if they do that now or not.

WN: No, I don't think you could give a potato to a doctor anymore. You gotta give your arm and your leg and your purse, too.

WH: Yeah.

WN: Well, now let me ask you, after you were married, where did you build your 00:24:00first house? You went to Tulsa, you said?

WH: I lived with my mother when I first married. That's where this oldest boy, that's where he born.

WN: Oh, Wesley was born there with your mother?

WH: And he was just beginning to crawl, and we got burned up. And then after that, my mother went to live my older sister, cause she was by herself, you know, so me and my husband, we had to buy a tent. We bought it from Mr. Purdy.

WN: Oh, you did?

WH: And lived in a tent. We lived in a tent. [Indecipherable]

WN: Oh, yes, I do know how those tents used to be.

WH: Well, we lived in that and then the next year, well we--

WN: How did you keep warm in the winter time?

WH: It didn't get cold like it do now.

WN: It didn't? And you lived--

WH: We lived in there and then we [indecipherable]. We planted their cotton. And then we make a little money and then we traded the Slyman, he had a grocery store, right there on the corner there.

WN: On Fifth Street, wasn't it?

WH: Yeah. And then after that we'd sale that cotton and pay that grocery bill. That's the way they used to pay they grocery bill.

WN: You'd charge all winter long and then pay it when you got your crop.

WH: And John Bishop was the same way.

WN: Yes, he did. That's what he told me one time. I said, "John do you ever remember a depression and being poor?" He said, "I never was poor." He said, "I always could get money from some place."

WH: And he used to, he had a, he first had a store right there as you going out 00:26:00south there. You know where there's a grocery store on this side, well, his store was on that side. And he had that store there, and he'd feed people, you know, was selling cotton. They'd sell the cotton and come there pay their grocery bill. John Bishop had a big gin, you know, down there [indecipherable].

WN: Oh, yes, yeah.

WH: Well, he had a big gin there run by a cotton.

WN: Well, he was a wealthy man, wasn't he?

WH: I don't know where it come from.

WN: Well, I'll be darn. I don't know where he came from, too. I think he told me one time, but I've forgotten. He said he was with, he said I made money from Tom Slick in Slick. He said I sold Tom Slick groceries, and I got rich. Let me ask 00:27:00you, did your mother leave you anything special that--any kind of--you said your mother left you a tea kettle. Did she leave you any other Indian things or your families? Did your mother leave you a pin or a necklace or anything? She left you something when she died? Your mother?

WH: Oh, my mother?

WN: Yeah. She didn't leave you anything?

WH: No, she didn't have anything.

WN: She didn't have anything. Did they write wills back then? You know, like a--you didn't have wills?

WH: No.

WN: No wills. You just gave it to them, didn't you?

WH: Yeah. And I know the woman who worked for Purdy. Purdy had an office right 00:28:00across the street there from, you know where Anthony store used to be?

WN: Yes, yes.

WH: Well, his office was right on that side.

WN: It was on that side?

WH: Yeah. And I know that woman used to--but I don't know her name. And she's still living here in town.

WN: Oh, she is?

WH: Yeah, I seen her one day down at the grocery store and I talked to her.

WN: Well, I wished you'd think who she is so I could talk to her, too.

WH: I guess she's still living. I hadn't seen her anymore.

WN: I'll be darned. Well if you think of her name, you let me know. Let me ask you, how did you all celebrate Christmas?

WH: Well, we'd just have a dinner, just, well, not exactly like you have it now, but we'd have a dinner, and of course a--

WN: Did you have a tree?

WH: A tree?

WN: Uh huh.

WH: Christmas tree?

WN: No Christmas tree, just had a dinner.

WH: That's all. And see my step-dad would go out and shoot a wild turkey.

WN: But you didn't exchange presents?

WH: Huh uh.

WN: Didn't exchange presents?

WH: No. We didn't.

WN: Well, now can you tell me about some of the early Indian customs, like some of the things that the Indians did that the white people didn't do.

WH: Well, I don't know. I don't remember.

WN: Okay. Alright. Can you remember the first automobile you ever saw?

WH: Yeah.

WN: Where was it?

WH: T-Model. And the first car we bought from George Carman.

WN: Oh, I remember Mr. Carman.

WH: You do?

WN: Yeah.

WH: He had a big storage house right there on 11th Street there. And that's 00:30:00where he--